Evidence of meeting #26 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Graham Flack  Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development, Department of Employment and Social Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Danielle Widmer
Cliff C. Groen  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development
Corinne Pohlmann  Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Leah Nord  Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 26 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 28, 2020, the committee will resume its study of the review of the employment insurance program.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions. We're pleased to have with us here today the Honourable Carla Qualtrough, Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion. From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Graham Flack, deputy minister; Lori MacDonald, senior associate deputy minister and chief operating officer for Service Canada; Cliff Groen, senior assistant deputy minister, benefits and integrated services branch of Service Canada; and Elisha Ram, associate assistant deputy minister, skills and employment branch.

I'm going to dispense with all of the other preliminaries because we have an experienced group of parliamentarians here to pose the questions and an experienced group of witnesses to answer them. We'll get right to it.

Welcome back to the committee, Minister Qualtrough. You have the floor for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Delta B.C.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough LiberalMinister of Employment

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, committee members, for inviting me to join you today.

I'd like to acknowledge that I am joining you from the traditional territory of the Tsawwassen and Musqueam first nations.

I would like to begin by acknowledging the work you are doing on the study of the employment insurance program. I am confident that your findings will be helpful as our government moves forward with the modernization of this program.

Last Friday, we learned that Canada gained more than 303,000 jobs in the month of March. This brings the national unemployment rate down to 7.5%, the lowest since the start of the pandemic. While we are encouraged by the fact that we have regained 91% of the jobs lost during the pandemic, many Canadians continue to experience unemployment or reduced hours, especially in light of ongoing restrictions and new lockdown orders. I note in particular the challenges being faced by young people and women.

Over the last year, the COVID-19 pandemic has revealed how the EI program has not kept up with the way Canadians work or been agile enough to respond to emerging labour market trends. We also saw the shortcomings of EI as a response to the pandemic.

First, through EI, we could not help all Canadian workers who had been impacted by pandemic-related job loss. Second, we couldn't efficiently process the incoming volume of applications to quickly get money to Canadians so they could pay their bills and put food on the table.

So we made a strategic decision to go outside the EI framework to provide immediate support to all affected Canadian workers. That's how the Canada emergency response benefit came about.

Working across departments and across party lines, in a very short time we were able to design, build, legislate and operationalize this new benefit. Over eight million Canadians received the CERB during the most uncertain of times.

As many of you know, the EI program has been built upon and reoriented over many decades, with different governments having different priorities over the years. As a result, it's become the most complex system within the Government of Canada.

Colleagues, we have before us an opportunity to make EI more inclusive and responsive to the needs of Canadian workers today. Since 2015, we've made important changes to EI, including enhancing provisions for working while on claim, extending parental benefits and creating the family caregiver benefit. Additionally, we made significant changes to the EI program last September to efficiently transition Canadians from the CERB to EI. These changes included a single national employment rate, an hours credit for regular and special benefits, a minimum weekly benefit rate of $500, and simplification measures to increase the speed of processing.

I'll note that over 3.9 million EI claims have been received since last September. This is in addition to the 2.7 million applications received for the CRB, the CRSB and the CRCB.

The temporary changes to EI were put in place for one year and are set to expire on September 21, 2021, meaning that the system will revert back to pre-pandemic parameters at that time. Our work to modernize EI must take into consideration a time frame of September 2021.

We must also consider the fragility and complexity of the EI program itself. We must set priorities not only in terms of the desired policy outcomes, but also in terms of the time it will take to effect a particular change. We must also consider the effect of a change on our ability to make other changes. This is why the sequencing of systemic changes becomes an important consideration.

We can all agree that conversations about changing or modernizing EI have been ongoing for some time. In fact, some of our COVID-related changes to the EI system have been called for by stakeholders for years.

In addition, stakeholders and experts have told me very clearly that they wanted to contribute, but they also wanted to see concrete action.

With this in mind, in the weeks and months to come, our government will be sharing with Canadians both our vision for a modernized and inclusive EI system and our plan to get there, including how we will address the September 2021 reversion to the former system and our plan for ongoing consultation on specific elements of the EI system.

Colleagues, a well-functioning EI system should ensure that benefits are accessible and adequate, equitable across regions and unemployed workers, limit disincentives to return to work and more generally promote a healthy labour market. While this might seem like a tall order, I am confident that we can get there and deliver for Canadians.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you very much, Minister.

We're going to begin now with questions, starting with the Conservatives.

Ms. Dancho, please, you have six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us today.

Earlier today, at the public accounts meeting, I spoke at length with Deputy Minister Flack and a number of others concerning the half a billion dollars that was paid to CERB recipients who doubled up or double-dipped, depending on how you want to describe it. They applied for both CERB and the EI. I am sure you'll remember this.

He expressed that there were about half a million people, 500,000 people, who did this double-dipping, so to speak. When I asked why that wasn't communicated, it was mentioned to me that it was, in fact, communicated on the ESDC website that people were to apply for only one, not both.

My concern, however, Minister, is that it caused a lot of additional cost—half a billion dollars—and I know some of that has been recouped and that CRA is going to be working to recoup a lot of the fraud that has happened with CERB. It's going to take years, we know.

As far as I am aware, is it...? You and your deputy minister knew that this was going to happen and that it was a technology issue, and you knew that people were going to be able to double-dip.

My question is, then: Why wasn't it more effectively communicated to the public that they should not be applying? On their end, 500,000 people made this mistake and applied for both. We know there were daily press conferences and every opportunity to communicate it. Can you explain to the committee why that was not taken more seriously?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

I remember very often reminding Canadians to apply for one or the other. In fact, we were very aware that Canadians who were eager, and of course, concerned about being able to pay their bills might, in fact, because they didn't hear back from the first one, quickly apply for the second one.

I feel like we regularly communicated this to Canadians, certainly in my speeches. I can dig in on how often. I can't recall how often, but it feels to me like it was regularly.

The other important thing to note here is that, once this particular issue was remedied, we went out and very clearly told Canadians that, if they had received double payments at the end, they would only ever be able to receive the maximum number of weeks that they were entitled to for the entirety of CERB, so they should budget themselves accordingly.

I remember using that line a lot, saying, “Listen, if you had two payments in one two-week period, that means you have now had two of your”—at that time—“seven payments, so please, watch your finances because you have received money in advance and you will not, at the back end, be able to make that seventh application.”

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Yes, thank you for that. I know that at Christmastime those letters were sent out to folks who wrongly received money, and then your government said, “Don't worry about it”, so there was a bit of a communications issue ongoing.

I recognize that it's an emergency situation, that tensions are high and that the public service is working very hard, but I think the fact that half a million people did this double-dipping would stand to show that the communication was clearly not communicated effectively enough, I would say. I'll leave it there.

I would like to ask you about the review of CERB. We know the CRA has committed, by December 2021, to provide a fulsome review of CERB. I know your department was the lead department on CERB. Deputy Minister Flack assured me that you are doing a fulsome review, but he wasn't able to commit to a date, like CRA has. He said it would be made public, which I appreciated, but can you commit to a date on that review, like CRA has?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

I am hesitant to do that now, when we're also looking at a second Auditor General's report of the CERB. We're trying to be efficient in the way we respond to these different reviews, but I can assure you it will, in fact, be fulsome, and will be done necessarily with CRA because we work so interdepartmentally on this benefit.

As soon as we have a date that's concrete, I will share that with you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I appreciate that.

He mentioned that the student benefit would be included in that.

Are you planning to include the failed Canada student service benefit and the WE Charity in that review?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

The CSSG was not within my area of responsibility, so our review will be focused on the CERB.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Is it not correct to say that it was under Minister Chagger, and I understand that she is the lead, but it was performed and initiated under ESDC?

If ESDC is doing the CERB review and this student benefit review, is ESDC not conducting a review of the failed student service benefit with the WE Charity?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Good question.

I think that with four—maybe five, counting Minister Chagger—ministers, Graham is in a better position to advise what other reviews are happening of ESDC programs that were outside of my responsibility.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Flack.

3:45 p.m.

Graham Flack Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development, Department of Employment and Social Development

In the review that the Auditor General called for, we're reviewing all the benefits that went to individuals. That would be the CERB and the student benefit.

We don't have plans to do a review at this point, although we may, through our audit and evaluation program, review the other programs that were not direct benefits to individuals.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

At this time ESDC has not committed to doing a review of the situation with the failed student service benefit and the WE Charity. No review has been planned for that?

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development, Department of Employment and Social Development

Graham Flack

We would typically review programs that have a go-forward nature to them in our audit and evaluation plans. That would be programs that will continue to go forward, which this isn't one of. In the case of the benefits it's to prepare for future crises. We're looking into the benefits paid to individuals. That's what our scope is, currently.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I will recommend with my last 10 seconds that you strongly consider doing a review of that process, given the fiasco that it was. That goes without saying. Given the scandal, I think a review is warranted.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Young please, for six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kate Young Liberal London West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Qualtrough, for joining our committee today to discuss the many areas covered by your department.

As you've said, COVID has really laid bare concerns that some employees are going to work sick, because they live in a province that doesn't support paid sick leave. As a federal government, we are offering income support for Ontario workers who are unable to work because they are sick: the Canada recovery sickness benefit.

Can you tell us more about this program and who can access these benefits?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Absolutely. It's a really important benefit that every working Canada has access to. If they have been advised to self-isolate or are sick with COVID or in quarantine, they have access now to up to four weeks of sickness benefits at $500 a week where they have lost more than 50% of their employment during the week.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Just hold on a minute there, Minister.

Madame Chabot.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

It's unfortunate that it's up to us to bring this to your attention, but the interpreters have told us that it's not possible at this time to interpret the minister's remarks.

Please, I'd like to be able to hear the minister's translated responses.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Yes, absolutely, Ms. Chabot.

We received a notice that this might happen and, unfortunately, it has.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Would you like me to repeat in French without it counting against the speaking time? I'll do my best.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Please wait a moment.