Human Resources Committee on April 15th, 2021

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In all fairness, Minister, we know that even having a $10 expense repayment a month right now is too much for those who are already living well below the poverty line. That's why I'm asking. Knowing that during COVID, ensuring public health and safety is ensuring that people can stay sheltered and can frequently wash their hands, why is your government okay with wilfully pushing low-income individuals into even deeper levels of poverty by not granting low-income CERB repayment amnesty?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As I said, no one has to make a repayment now, and there will not be any penalties or interest for anyone who erred in good faith. We need to focus our efforts right now on getting through the pandemic and helping as many people as possible prove their eligibility so that as few people as possible are in the position of repayment.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Let's redefine what good faith is. Living below the poverty line because our social safety net has not kept up with the needs of people living in Canada isn't always about good faith or not. It's about living in poverty and having to survive.

I say that because last week the PBO released a report on guaranteed livable basic income that concluded that a GLBI, a guaranteed livable basic income, could cut poverty in half by next year with a net zero cost and with minimal impact on the labour market. I know you mentioned the disincentivization of work. We know, through much research on the GLBI, that in fact that has not been found, certainly not in research findings.

Will your government commit to poverty eradication by moving towards ensuring that everybody residing in Canada who lives in poverty is provided with a guaranteed livable basic income?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I would argue, and believe, that our government has been quite aggressive in our poverty reduction measures. As we look to the future and to focusing on targeted supports for specific groups of Canadians—whether it be workers, seniors, or moving forward with the Canada disability benefit—we like to tailor our supports.

Canadians have different needs and require different levels of support. Arguably, with the Canada child benefit and the OAS-GIS bookending families with children and seniors, we need to focus on working-age Canadians, absolutely, to allow them to live with dignity.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I can tell you of a population that has said not enough is being done, and that is gig workers—certainly artists—and students, whose incomes have been gutted during COVID-19. They haven't been given support. Many of them are speaking about the dire need for a guaranteed livable basic income. Where do they fit into this plan?

I know you are talking about expanding programs. People living in Canada cannot wait, right now. People are literally losing homes right now. We know we're in this for a number of months. What is the plan? Knowing this and knowing the health and safety risks of not looking after people during a pandemic, will your government commit to CERB amnesty for low-income folks and to move toward a guaranteed livable basic income?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Give a brief answer, if you could, Minister. She is well past time.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There is so much there to unpack, but I will say that we have been there with our supports for gig workers from the beginning of the pandemic. One reason we didn't go through EI was so that we could cover all workers who weren't eligible for EI.

I'm happy to answer in a more fulsome way, Mr. Chair, in the next round.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Minister.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We go back to Ms. Dancho, please, for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to ask you about the EI Commissioner for Employers. As you know, her appointment was up in January, after 10 years. Her name is Ms. Judith Andrew. You have not reappointed an EI commissioner for employers.

You've mentioned a couple of times in our committee today the changes you are looking at making in EI. It sounds as though they are going to be quite substantive. I believe that likely is warranted, given the archaic technology we continue to hear about. My concern is that these changes are being made without an employer voice at the table.

CFIB said that 158,000 small businesses had closed by July of last summer. They estimate that another 220,000 are going to close. I'm just concerned, if there is not an employer and small business voice at the table alongside government and the EI commissioner for workers, that there is a substantial voice being left out that impacts millions of jobs.

Are you in the process of appointing a new person? Can you give me a timeline for when that's going to happen?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I can tell you that we are in the process, that we don't have a specific timeline and that we are working very closely with CFIB on EI modernization. We've had massive conversations with them. They have given us robust proposals on the things they would like to see changed within the EI system. I believe they are coming next after me, and I would encourage you all to dig in on some of their really innovative ideas.

Yes, we are on track to appoint an EI commissioner for employers, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that.

When I met recently with CFIB and the chamber of commerce, they expressed—I'm not putting words in their mouth, but paraphrasing from my experience with them—that they were very concerned that there wasn't an employer commissioner at the table. It's been four or five months now.

You alluded to the possibility that legislation is coming at the end of September. That really feels like being right around the corner. The months are just melting into each other. It is coming very quickly and I would like to impress upon you the importance of having that employer representation for any EI changes, in that formal commissioner role.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Absolutely, and I will get my office to keep your office apprised of the process and timelines. I just don't have them at my fingertips.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That would be great. We'd love to meet with the new commissioner when one is appointed. That would be wonderful.

I also want to ask you about mandatory EI contributions and whether you are considering at all mandatory EI contributions for sole proprietors. Earlier in the meeting today, you alluded to support for the self-employed.

Are mandatory EI contributions for the self-employed on the table, for you?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

It is premature to say “mandatory” versus “voluntary”, but we are hoping to have a robust conversation with Canadian businesses and workers around interest in and perhaps the necessity of some kind of self-employed benefit. Right now, self-employed workers have access to special benefits, but it is an option.

I think you'll hear from the CFIB that they would prefer a voluntary or opt-in self-employed regular benefit, as opposed to a mandatory one. As a government, certainly we will take their perspective very much into consideration as we move forward.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

When we met with them—and we've met with a number of other groups—and even at the committee, I believe, when we met with the Associated Designers of Canada, representing artists, they said they do not want a mandatory EI contribution for their sole proprietors. That is something they were quite adamant about.

Even in my riding, I have many women entrepreneurs who have small businesses on the side, and the idea that they would have to pay into EI on a mandatory basis is quite concerning.

It sounds as though it's not off the table but is not something you're leaning into. Is that a fair—

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

It is something we're looking at. As Graham can tell you, we looked at other countries around the world and their success rates with this kind of benefit, and we saw that it has been challenging. It doesn't have the natural checks and balances in the system that you would have when employers and workers put it in together.

Very cautiously, I suppose, is how I would characterize the way we're moving on with these conversations, but nothing is at all decided on this. As I mentioned, this is one of the things that will require significant expert advice and consultation before we land on anything.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Can you share with the committee any groups you have discussed this with? Are there any sole proprietor or self-employed groups that provided any feedback on this consideration?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

We consulted the CFIB, for sure. I'm just looking down my list of stakeholders and I would say they are the main ones. We have talked to non-profits like the Canadian Cancer Society, and they have advised us. We have heard, not necessarily from groups, but the CFIB is very clear in its advice and its concern about making this mandatory. Like I said, I'm very much heeding that warning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

We'll hear from Mr. Long, for five minutes, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon to my colleagues.

Minister, it's wonderful to have you back. Again, I want to commend you for your openness, availability and transparency. It's great.

My first question is about EI and training support. A few meetings back, Minister, we heard from Hassan Yussuf, president of the Canadian Labour Congress, about the intersection of EI and training support programs.

One of the recommendations he had for the committee was to expand the skills boost initiative, which lets unemployed workers use their EI benefit while getting training. Indeed, a number of organizations have been calling for better integration of training and employment insurance. We see that all the time.

Our government is committed not only to modernizing EI for the 21st century but to making the largest training investment in Canadian history.

Minister, can you share your thoughts on how training and skills development could interact in the modernized, revamped EI system?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

In my humble opinion, EI and training are inseparable. In fact, access to training for unemployed workers was one of the reasons for the transition from the CERB to EI last September. Unemployed workers could then have access, through EI, to the training.

EI has the tools to help support and connect Canadians to the types of employment and training supports provided by our provincial and territorial counterparts that help them get reconnected to the labour market.

Of course, as we look to the future of EI, we have to look at ways to improve access to training and to really ensure this. It will play a crucial role as we transition workers and respond to the changing nature of work. Additionally, even if we make EI available to more workers, there will be some who would benefit from training who won't be within the EI system. We need to get to those workers as well.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

I have another question for you, Minister. Many workers and stakeholders are excited about our government's commitment to modernize employment insurance. However, some employers are concerned about the status of the EI account, the EI premiums and what those EI premiums might look like two years from now.

How are EI premiums in the EI account taken into consideration during our response to COVID-19?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

You know, we were really sensitive from the beginning about not overburdening the EI account. That's why we decided to credit the EI account with the costs associated with the CERB for EI-eligible Canadians.

The EI account will not bear the cost of the decision to help a broad array of workers during COVID. In fact, as you said, we froze EI premiums for the next two years.

As I said, we're very conscious about the cost of any changes, how that would impact the EI account and the impact that would have on EI premiums. We will not make a decision on any particular element or any aspect of change without really understanding the impact it could or might have on premiums and the EI operating account. You can't prudently and responsibly make a decision on EI without thinking of that particular aspect.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Perfect. Thank you.

I want to close off with the seasonal workers pilot project. A majority of seasonal workers have their working season over the summer, and as you know, most were negatively impacted by the pandemic. We certainly had many calls here in my constituency office.

How did our government's support measures in response to COVID-19 help workers in seasonal industries, and what does our government plan for them moving forward?