Human Resources Committee on May 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

Thank you, Minister.

Next is Ms. Dancho, please, for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you Minister for being here for our study on the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.

I want to change it up a little bit. There's been a lot of talk about finances and spending. I want to speak to you, Minister, today about isolation for seniors and a few of your thoughts in that regard.

Just to begin, I wanted to quote one of our expert witnesses in our first meeting a few weeks back. Her name was Ms. Laura Tamblyn Watts of a Canadian national seniors advocacy organization. I'm sure you know her very well.

She said, in regard to be asked about the impact of isolation on seniors:

It has been a misery for older people across this country, whether they are the individuals left in their own homes and socially isolated from family, friends, neighbours and faith communities, without exercise and daily connections, or at the most extreme level, those in long-term care....

She went on to say:

Older people are suffering untold amounts of physical deterioration. In long-term and residential care facilities, we've been able to measure it, so we know that their bodies are getting less strong. We also know that cognitive impairment has been significantly affected. People who were more able mentally before are now less able mentally. That can be measured on dementia scales or on other scales for cognitive impairment.

We know that mental health has deteriorated enormously. For some people, particularly those in long-term care, where the average length of stay before a person passes away is 18 months, this has been almost the rest of their lives, so it has been devastating.

This is the situation facing seniors, particularly those living alone in long-term care over the past 14 months. Your government has been responsible for this country in that time.

I have many seniors and many folks in my riding who advocate on behalf of their aging parents and grandparents. What are the concrete steps you have taken to address the incredible impacts of isolation on seniors during the pandemic?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much for that excellent question.

I want to say how much I respect Laura Tamblyn Watts. She's excellent. She's definitely one of the stakeholders that I stay connected with for her opinions and thoughts on things.

In terms of long-term care, just so that you know, this is not something I'm not familiar with. My mother-in-law was in long-term care last year and passed away after not very long in long-term care. She was admitted in February, and we lost her in June. She wasn't in very long. Part of the reason was that she lost hope. She couldn't see family. She had been with her husband every day for the bulk of her life. We expected, when she went into long-term care right before the pandemic hit, that her husband, who was just down in the next building, would be able to go and have breakfast, lunch and dinner with her every day and be with her. That was probably the only way she was going to eat, to have that support.

We totally appreciate the circumstances that have happened to seniors and the precipitous decline that we've seen in seniors who have been isolated in long-term care. I've been working with my colleagues across the provinces and territories to find ways that we can get caregivers and family members back into long-term care safely. That was one of the reasons, obviously, that it was important to get them vaccinated quickly and to get workers in long-term care vaccinated quickly. Also, we've been providing support through groups that have been providing tablets. We've been providing support to long-term care facilities so that they can get tablets in there.

As you know, we've also been working at trying to get more PSWs. What was actually happening was that, for one PSW in my mother-in-law's building, his whole day was spent basically going around with a tablet connecting with families. It's really important. We needed to get the resources. We're working with provinces and territories to get the resources.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate the new technology for seniors. I also have very elderly grandparents who haven't been able to master the new technology unfortunately, so that is difficult for us.

You mentioned vaccines. I appreciate that we are getting more vaccines now. I believe had your government procured more in January and February, we would have seen perhaps less restrictions on our long-term care.

You mentioned that you know Ms. Laura Tamblyn Watts. When I asked her what could be done, she said, “The other piece I would offer is that once people are vaccinated against COVID-19, we need to loosen these restrictions.”

Specifically in terms of seniors in long-term care, could you comment on that?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

As you know, the jurisdiction for long-term care and for health care is the provinces' and territories' jurisdiction. We have been providing vaccines. We've also been providing rapid test kits and a new technology—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Pardon me. Have you provided any recommendations to your counterparts?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Answer very quickly, Minister. We're out of time.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

We have been providing recommendations, not through us but through the health tables, through NACI and through the science. It's not a political decision. It's something that's being done with the scientists. Immunologists and virologists have been making recommendations. The challenge is trying to keep people safe while also providing supports to get them through these challenging times when they can't meet.

As you said, there are those who can't master the technology, which is why sometimes providing extra support to have someone help them.... They come in the room and do it with them, which would be PSWs and those working in the facilities, so they can have some time to connect with family members.

However, it's not enough. It's not good enough. We need to do better, and we're constantly looking at ways to help.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Long, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon to my colleagues, and good afternoon, Minister Schulte. It's great to have you back at HUMA again.

I want to just very quickly take exception to MP Gazan's comments on the $17.65 a month for seniors. That is absolutely not accurate. We gave a $300 payment to seniors receiving the OAS. If you get the GIS, you get an additional $200. Then there's the GST return, which would actually equal almost $100 a month, as a top-up for seniors, not $17.65. Again, I wanted to clarify that.

I had a 66-year-old senior in my office this afternoon, Minister. She was exceptionally grateful for what we have done as a government. She's a low-income single senior. She was obviously thrilled with the 10% increase that we gave seniors right off the bat in 2015. She was also thrilled that we were in government, because obviously the Conservatives were going to up the age of OAS to 67 years old. She wouldn't have even been eligible for anything if the Conservative government was still in power, so she was very appreciative.

We talked about the benefits we've given. We also talked about the additional 10% for OAS for seniors over 75. Obviously she's not there yet, but she certainly understood the reasons why.

I want you to comment on the things we've done and how all of those things added together make big differences for seniors in making ends meet. I'm wondering if you could give me your thoughts and comments on that.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much. You're absolutely right that it is a sequence of steps that our government has been taking to improve the financial security of seniors. As I said before, it has resulted in real results. An 11% reduction is significant.

There's always more to be done, but it is true that you have to look at the 10% increase in GIS. You also have to look at the changes that we made to the GIS earnings exemption. There are many seniors doing small-scale self-employment, such as selling things they make or doing very infrequent services, which allows them to make some income. We made changes in budget 2019 that allowed them to keep, without any clawback, up to $5,000. That includes self-employment, which was not the case before. Between $5,000 and $15,000, they will only get a 50% clawback. That's a significant help and allows seniors who are struggling to keep more money in their pockets.

There's something else that we haven't talked about and we need to. We've also raised the basic personal amount over four years. That's going to help four million seniors save about $300 if they're single and $600 if they're in a couple. You have to look at all the steps we've been doing that add up to real savings, real help and real financial security for seniors as they're aging.

For future seniors, don't forget the 50% increase in pension outcomes in CPP. That's a very significant enhancement we've made to make sure that future seniors have the funding they need for a secure retirement.

There is so much more we've been doing that isn't just about money and putting money in their pockets. This is also about making sure we have better supports in the community to help seniors when they need help. That's why I'm really pleased with the age well at home initiative. I've heard a lot of people across the country say, “We don't want to go into long-term care. We're really glad that you're helping in long-term care because those seniors need to be well cared for and treated with respect, but I don't want to go into long-term care. I want to stay in my home. What are you going to do help me stay in my home?”

This is why I'm very excited about this age well at home program. It will be addressing the needs of seniors who are getting more frail and who need more support to stay in their homes. I hear a lot about snow shovelling, mowing, cleaning, meal making and laundry. These are things that can be supported by the community, by volunteers. We can help keep seniors happy in their own homes, rather than having them go into long-term care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Thank you, Minister.

We continue with the Bloc Québécois.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will be brief. The cost estimated by the Bloc Québécois to increase the old age security for all seniors aged 65 and over is approximately $4 billion. This is the answer I expected from the minister during the previous round of questions.

Let me come back to my question.

Madam Minister, we are talking about $4 billion. So what is stopping you from increasing the old age security for those who are 75 years old and under?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

I want to make this clear, and I didn't get to say it last time. Put into perspective, if you look at what was provided to seniors in 2020 and what will be provided in 2021, it will add up to $5.5 billion in direct financial support to seniors. That is over $1.6 billion more than we had committed to in our platform. We are stepping up and providing significant support to seniors, and more than we promised in our platform.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Chair, let me remind the minister that the assistance given to seniors during the pandemic was a one-time payment, whereas seniors need long-term, recurring assistance. They need an increase in the old age security pension based on the principle that old age security is a universal concept.

You yourself have recognized this by changing the age of eligibility for the old age security plan from 67 to 65, because 65 is the age of eligibility for the pension. From what I understand, like everyone else, some seniors will be able to age with dignity from the age of 75, because that is when they will get the 10% increase in the old age security. Can we really say that all seniors will be able to age with dignity?

Seniors under the age of 75 will not be able to age with dignity. So I would like you to tell us more about that.

Is there a study that really shows that seniors over 75 need more care?

I was recently in a caregiver group of about 50 people, 50% of whom are under 75. They hammered home the message that they need help and support, which would mean an increase in their old age security pension, meaning assistance that would go directly into their pockets.

The new horizons for seniors program is not enough to help them. They need direct financial assistance. What do you do with those caregivers under 75 who need money?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much.

Again, I want to let you know that, in 2019 and 2020, the government provided $56.3 billion in old age security benefits to 6.5 million beneficiaries. I'm just trying to put in perspective how much money the federal government provides to seniors though old age security. This is a very massive program.

One thing people need to remember—and I heard it from you all—is that when we're looking at progress for seniors, that's just one piece of the programs we are doing. You mentioned some of the others, like new horizons. You mentioned that now we're going to have an age well at home initiative.

You have to remember we were also being asked to step up and support national long-term care standards, so we put $3 billion on the table to be able to help provinces and territories enact standards and improve outcomes in those facilities. We also provided rapid stream investments in terms of the buildings, because not only was it infection prevention control that was required to be enhanced, but we needed to enhance some of the buildings to keep people safe, through ventilation and isolation.

These are things we're already doing, and we're stepping up to provide that funding—multi-billions of dollars more. You're just looking at one piece, at the OAS, and that's not what the government is doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Next we have Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Minister, I know you spoke a little bit about this, about how budget 2021 proposes providing $90 million over three years, beginning in 2021-22, to Employment and Social Development Canada to launch the age well at home initiative. It would “assist community-based organizations in providing practical support that helps low-income and otherwise vulnerable seniors” including by “matching seniors with volunteers who can help with meal preparations, home maintenance, daily errands, yard work, and transportation.” It sounds a little like WE—the volunteering. Too bad we're not looking at paying people a living wage.

Here's my question. Why has the government chosen to rely on a charity of volunteers to support low-income seniors, something that needs real investment, rather than making the investments that are needed to ensure the human rights of older Canadians are met?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I want to make sure we're remembering the $6 billion that the federal government is providing to the provinces and territories to help with home care. This is where seniors are getting paid help to support them in their homes and to recover from illness and injury to be able to stay in their homes. That's $6 billion that the government provided.

This is a program that's additional support to help in non-health related situations. Organizations are already there. I think you've probably heard of Meals on Wheels. You've heard of all sorts of organizations that are already in the community supporting seniors. This is to expand that opportunity, to provide them with some financial support to organize, to mobilize more volunteers and to be able to give that help. People want to help, and this is a way to help mobilize that support.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Minister, I would disagree. I think ensuring that all seniors can live in dignity is a human rights issue, and certainly impacts to health.... Again, you're not answering my question.

Why are you spending $90 million on a volunteer program rather than paying people a living wage to ensure that seniors can get the care they need to live with human rights and dignity in this country?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We'll need a short answer, please, Minister. We're out of time.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Okay.

We are definitely supporting seniors in a variety of different ways. We are basically helping to provide support to get more PSWs into the field, to be able to help in not only long-term care but in-home care. We are doing a variety of a different measures. We're also putting more money into the national housing strategy to create more livable spaces for seniors—affordable livable spaces for seniors. You have housing and wage subsidies. You have programs. You have direct financial support.

The government is there for seniors. We will always be there for seniors, and we're going to continue to be there. I'm looking forward to your recommendations so that we can see what else we need to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Tochor, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you very much.

Minister, the seniors I have been meeting with tell a different story. You brag about the increase of over $1,000 for last year, over the different buckets of money that you made one-time payments for, but the seniors I've been talking to read reports in the news about 40,000 15-year-olds getting approved for CERB at $2,000 a month—not yearly but monthly. They hear about over 92,000 16-year-olds who have been approved and about 17-year-olds living at home.

There were 184,000 kids getting CERB last year. Do you think that's fair?