Human Resources Committee on June 17th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Newman.

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Gazan, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I agree with Madam Newman that the new horizons for seniors program certainly is of benefit to my riding.

Not to be negative, but talking about something that isn't of benefit, I was asking you, Monsieur Séguin, about the pension, and I know you didn't have enough time to answer. What are your thoughts on that? Do you have any ideas on why the government has excluded seniors aged 65 to 74 from the increase in OAS? I have concerns, because we know that many seniors live in poverty in this country. It's no different from 65 to 74 and older.

[Serge Séguin]

We're just as concerned as you are, Ms. Gazan. We would have liked to hear a valid reason from the minister's representatives. We have a lot of questions. I find it hard to see how you can put people 65 and over in a separate category, especially when, as I mentioned, 60% of them have annual incomes of less than $30,000.

Two retired economists sit on AQDR's income and taxation committee. They've determined how much a senior has to pay to live in an urban area in Quebec. In Montreal, for example, a senior needs $28,000 to live. Do you think the federal and Quebec old age security pensions are enough for a senior to be able to live in Montreal? The total maximum amount of those pensions is far less than $20,000; it's $18,000. So that person is $10,000 short of being able to live in Montreal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Do you want to offer a couple of comments on that, Ms. Newman? Go ahead.

[Connie Newman]

We all have to remember—in support of Serge over there—that when we start to open up, we need to look at who's working during the day at the low-income jobs. At Tim Hortons, Walmart and some of the other big box stores, a lot of those are people who have to work. They don't get enough dollars through their pension, or they don't have a retirement pension plan. We see that in Manitoba. I'm sure the same thing exists in Montreal, Quebec.

Look around. It doesn't take much to figure out. They were also hit the hardest, because all those jobs disappeared when we went into shutdown.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Newman.

Mr. Vis is next, please, for five minutes.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Mr. Chair, I was under the impression that after one hour we were going to move to clause-by-clause.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I can use the time if you don't want to use it, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay.

Mr. Vis, we have the full two hours, so I was going to finish out this second round. It appears that the Liberals are keen to ask another round of questions.

I'll cede the floor to you or one of your colleagues for five minutes.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'll pass on my time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay.

Does anyone else on the Conservative side have questions for the panel?

Ms. Gazan? You're with the NDP.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know, but I'm just saying that if nobody else wants it, I would gladly ask many questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay.

Ms. Falk, I see that your hand is up. Go ahead, for five minutes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Wonderful. Thank you very much.

I would like to follow up with you, Mr. Séguin. You had a very short amount of time to respond to my question, which was in regard to your membership and how the pandemic has impacted their mental health and well-being. I'm just wondering if you have anything further to add to that.

[Serge Séguin]

Yes, Ms. Falk, the pandemic was very difficult for Quebec seniors. They suffered enormously from the confinement. There was a social split, if I can use this term even though I know it's not the right one. In other words, they were kept alone and isolated from their families. There may have been images like these shown elsewhere in Canada but in Quebec, on television they were showing people crying and trying to speak through a window. Often, the senior on the other side of the window did not understand what was happening. So it was very difficult for seniors. Even those who were mentally well balanced suffered. Some even decided to move out of their residences so they would never have to experience anything like it again.

Our association has been around for 42 years, but the CHSLDs and RPAs date from the 1960s and 1970s. We've been complaining for a long time about the fact that services are inadequate, that there is not enough staff to care for the elderly, and that the government claims they've heard our complaints. Nevertheless, it would seem that it took a pandemic for them to really become aware of what was happening, because suddenly the media started saying just how terrible and awful things were. And yet our organization has been there for 42 years and has for a long time been condemning these situations without anyone listening. All of a sudden, because of the pandemic, it's as if it were something brand new and people began to react. In any event, it's time for us to do something. We'd better be ready in case there's another pandemic, because we think it could be worse than the one we've just been through.

Does that answer your question, Ms. Falk?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Yes, for sure, and I think you bring up a good point too. For those seniors who may have Alzheimer's or dementia, just that transition when everything went into lockdown mid-March 2020— not knowing what's going on, not being able to see those who are familiar, routines being changed—is detrimental to not only the physical health of the individual but also their mental and emotional health, which I think is so important to recognize through all of this.

I'm just wondering, too, did the needs or priorities of your membership change during the pandemic?

[Serge Séguin]

According to our survey, seniors are demanding more services in residences. They want more autonomy and they want services that meet their expectations. They want to be listened to. They no longer want to be treated like children.

We often receive complaints from people in residences, and you'd swear sometimes that our seniors are in prison. Recently on the news, a case was reported about how two seniors were prevented from leaving their residence because of an outbreak. They even called in Quebec's provincial police to prevent them from leaving. Calls had to be made to Quebec's health and social services ministry asking them to intervene. They were finally allowed to leave the residence and stay with their loved ones until the outbreak was over.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Yes, and I think, too, that it's just so important to recognize autonomy. Just because you're aging and getting older doesn't mean that you want to give your autonomy away.

I think it's so important, when it comes to aging in place, that we recognize that it's not just where you live. It's shovelling the snow, food preparation and house cleaning. There are so many other aspects to making sure Canadians can age in place safely and healthily.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mrs. Falk.

[Serge Séguin]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to reiterate Ms. Newman's comments. Seniors living in rural areas often lose their autonomy more quickly because their relatives live in cities that are not anywhere near them. Seniors live alone in their home or in a seniors residence. They have no access to the Internet and are left on their own.

We'll see what happens after the pandemic, but based on current Quebec statistics, 50% of people living in a CHSLD are never visited by their relatives or friends. Of the remaining 50%, only 25% receive occasional visits, at times like Christmas, Mother's Day or Easter. The farther apart they are without any family members nearby, the more isolated and less autonomous they become.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Séguin.

I see your hand up, Ms. Newman, but we're well past time for this round. However, we have one more person who will pose questions, so hopefully you'll be able to get your point across.

Mr. Lauzon now, for five minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both witnesses for their remarks and for being here today.

I'll begin with Mr. Séguin.

The Premier of Quebec and the Prime Minister of Canada jointly announced some good news, and that is that in Quebec, everyone is going to have access to affordable high-speed Internet.

Are you aware of this? If so, have you told the members of your association that by September 2022, everyone will be connected to the Internet, including people living in rural areas.

[Serge Séguin]

I'm sorry, Mr. Lauzon, but we haven't heard about that. Even if we had, it wouldn't have changed much. So many promises are made in politics that sometimes we wonder what's really happening. I'm not trying to be sarcastic and not aiming at any particular political party; I'm not interested in playing politics. What I'm interested in is everyday realities. For example, Quebec promised us 15,000 social housing units not so long ago, and we're still waiting for them.

If it ever happens, then so much the better. I think that the seniors who live in rural areas, far away from cities, are those who would benefit the most, because they could stay in touch with their loved ones.