Human Resources Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2020

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Now we go to Madame Chabot.

Ms. Chabot, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Did you call on me, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you. I am sorry, there still a slight delay.

Ms. McGee, I am going to continue with the question on data collection. It's the question that you were just asked.

What you told us is extremely important. You were saying that the data should be collected by and for the indigenous nations for whom they are important.

What kind of support do you need, both financial and human, in order to complete that data collection?

Surveys are important for better action and for finding solutions. According to your description, we can see a major gap between the needs in terms of homelessness and the range of support available for people in that situation.

What resources do you need in order to collect the data effectively and to be able to respond to the reality on the ground?

[Susan McGee]

Thank you for the question.

It isn't really just a resource question in the response to the context of this meeting. I think we are learning so much, and with complete vulnerability and humility, we have a lot more to learn. I would say that one of the things we really need to do nationally is that when we make something important nationally and when programs and national plans and studies get institutionalized in terms of expectations, we will respond.

There are experts in the field who we've learned from and are learning from, but I think that need needs to be driven.... I don't mean to sound deflective at all. It is a matter, though, however, that there is scarcity in all of this work. Limited resources are just the reality of the work that happens in the homeless-serving sector. It needs to be something that's an expectation of our work that then we also can ensure, and we rely on leaders across Canada that are more progressive, perhaps, than other communities and other spaces.

The facilitation of that I think is very important, and some of that has been facilitated by the establishment of cross-jurisdictional and national dialogue around this. I think that needs to be supported further. It is absolutely an environment of continuous learning. We will get there with.... I would be really at fault if I tried to put a number on a cost associated with something that is more about shifting how we do, who we are and how we be, as opposed to just a task.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. McGee.

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

My question is for Ms. McGee.

Today is the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, so I think it's important to raise article 19 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which recognizes “the equal right of all persons with disabilities to live in the community, with choices equal to others”, as well as articles 21.2 and 22.1 of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which state that “Indigenous peoples have the right, without discrimination, to the improvement of their economic and social conditions, including...housing”, and that “Particular attention [shall] be paid to...persons with disabilities”.

Last month was Indigenous Disability Awareness Month, which partially seeks to highlight the fact that indigenous people living in Canada experience rates of disability much higher than those of the Canadian population.

Can you speak about the importance of ensuring that the rights of indigenous peoples living with disabilities are upheld in housing and otherwise?

[Susan McGee]

I think you have said it so well. I think these are really fundamental rights, and if they're not incorporated in all of our work, we are leaving behind those who are the most vulnerable amongst the most vulnerable.

I also know that in the communities we serve and those experiencing homelessness for a long period of time, disabilities aren't always the visible disabilities. Quite frankly, even for those with diagnosed disabilities, we know that within homeless community, many individuals did not have access in their lives to appropriate and timely assessments at times. Had they, now they would be qualifying for a level of support that others have available to them. It's just because of their circumstances, in that they were not really in a family environment network that enabled them to be appropriately diagnosed.

It needs to go back further and into the way that we actually determine, assess and identify that disabilities exist, because we have really failed to do that for people who are now adults and experiencing homelessness for long periods of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You can have a very brief question, if you wish, Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

How do you think this should inform future government strategies and funds related to this matter going forward? Should it impact funding frameworks?

[Susan McGee]

I can only express that currently there is an expectation around things like universal design and that there is a part of our application process currently that does identify that. I think we have to find a better way of not having that be potentially an obstacle.

I think there might be some opportunities to work at a community level to find really creative ways of meeting that need. It can become something that becomes another part of an application that perhaps gets in the way of the strength of an application, because we don't have a deep enough understanding of how we can achieve that creatively. I think organizations on the ground that really have the capacity to do that need to be supported.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

We will go back to the Conservatives.

Ms. Falk, you have five minutes, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

First off, I would like to thank all of our witnesses for being patient with us and for lending their time here to speak to our committee so that we can glean some of your wisdom and experience. Thank you for that.

My first question is for Ms. McGee. I know you mentioned that there has been an increase in homelessness in Edmonton. I'm just wondering if there's a reason for that, when you noticed it started, and if there's any data for that.

[Susan McGee]

Yes, certainly, and it is directly related to the pandemic.

We maintain a by-name list. It's available on our website. We have public-facing tableau worksheets that illustrate over time how many individuals experience homelessness, and you can cross tabulate that with various other indicators.

Certainly, within the context of the pandemic, we have seen a couple of things. One is that housing stability has been compromised by individuals who may be co-housing or in precarious housing circumstances are not able to continue that because of the need for their cohorts to isolate, or just that it's been more tenuous. Again, to the earlier point about poverty, poverty is being exacerbated for many who don't qualify for various income sources and are being hit hard during the pandemic.

It's definitely connected to the pandemic, and I would say again that it exposes for us, with regard to our system, just how we need to really reorient around prevention so that it does not become an ongoing experience.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

I'm from Lloydminster, so I'm pretty close to where you're located. I'm just wondering how many people your organization would serve who would maybe come into the urban centre from rural, remote communities.

I'm just interested to know if that's a trend. Are there a lot of people who are coming from outside and finding themselves in the city?

[Susan McGee]

Yes, there certainly are, and I apologize that I don't have a number off the top of my head for that.

When we opened our major centre at the early stages of the pandemic and had numerous people coming to Edmonton just for services. They were coming directly to the EXPO facility for support.

We also have—and I apologize if the term doesn't...because it's kind of an economics term—churn, in that we have people who come into our community and leave it and come back and forth because we are a northern centre.

Fortunately, because of the multiple relationships we have and the way that the housing first system is designed, we can reconnect with people when they come back into the system, but we are definitely a major centre that has a lot of people coming to the community looking for resources. We don't necessarily have the ability to connect with them quickly, particularly in this time when so many things are really difficult to navigate.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I know, just from my experience, the importance of wraparound services as well when it comes to housing. It's one thing to have a place to go; it's a whole other ball game if we can have services that help in that process, like jobs, personal development or anything else.

I just have one more question, and this is for anybody.

Could we get on record what the differences are, if there are any, between homelessness in rural, remote, northern communities versus urban centres, and what some of the differences and challenges could be between the two. please.

[Susan McGee]

Nobody is jumping at it.

It is a very difficult for us to say that we have depth on that question from our particular vantage point, given the roles we play around the table. I that know Matt is from a smaller community in Alberta.

Matt, do you have any comments to add on that? I'm going to call you out now because I haven't done it yet this whole meeting.

[Matthew Ward, Manager, Planning and Engagement, Homeward Trust Edmonton]

I think part of what I would observe, from my an experience in a smaller community and working now in a more urban environment, is that range of access to services. That is a huge driver of that churn, the types of services that one might need to access versus what's available in the community where you live, the difference between living in Edmonton versus living in my community of Driftpile Cree Nation. It has 1,200 members and is very small in northern Alberta.

I think that's where you start to see the barriers in access and what happens to people when they don't have access to those things. Chief Leon might have more of an observation of the day-to-day situation in terms of access to housing on reserve. I think it's a huge barrier.

When you go into the city, I think some of those barriers turn into things around access to addiction and mental health services, the shelter systems and larger cycles that people connect to in those places versus rural areas, where you'd see the larger difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Ward.

We're going to Mr. Vaughan, for five minutes.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Thank you for the presentations today.

To Mr. Lawson-Swain, within your housing envelope, how many distinct indigenous nations do you serve?

[Marcel Lawson-Swain]

I want to break that down into two different types of populations that we deal with.

First and foremost, for the local host first nations, the Musqueum, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations are pretty much on urban reserves. They are very closely situated to Vancouver, or within Vancouver, and 51% of their members live on reserves. We have served 49% of their population over the last 40 years. We have touched upon a number of their needs in their community for that long.

Throughout the province of British Columbia, of the more than 200 first nations that exist in B.C., we have served 51% of those nations, as well, through the work that we do.

More importantly, with the work that we do, we have people from all over Canada coming to where we are situated. Of the more than 600 first nations from all over Canada, we serve about 360 of those different nations. When we talk about urban services and urban resourcing, we know for a fact that the first nations communities aren't going to be funded.

If we have five of their community members living in Vancouver, for example, they're not going to create an office in Vancouver to serve those five members. They're dependent on organizations like Lu'ma to meet the needs of their communities from all over Canada, because we serve such a huge population of different first nations right across the country.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Some within the AFN movement have said that instead of creating a fourth stream of funding for urban indigenous residents, it should simply be the three NIOs that manage it. The complexity you just displayed shows why that would be short-sighted, because they don't actually have accountability to those members sometimes. Moreover, there also is no method of dividing up the dollars, so that you don't take money away from reserve funding or treaty funding organizations.