Human Resources Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 100 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, October 18, 2023, the committee will continue its study on Bill C-319, an act to amend the Old Age Security Act.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and virtually by Zoom.

I want to take a moment to review procedure.

Those attending in the room and by Zoom have the option of speaking in the official language of their choice. Use interpretation services with the headphones in the room. Those appearing virtually can use the globe icon on the bottom of their screen and select the official language of their choice. If there's an issue with interpretation, please get my attention by raising your hand or using the “raise hand” icon on your screen. We'll suspend while it is being corrected.

Please address all questions through the chair. To get my attention, simply raise your hand or use the “raise hand” icon.

I also want to advise members in the room to keep their earpiece away from the mic when they're not using it and to keep their phone away from their microphone, because this can cause issues with the interpreters' hearing. We do not want any of them to have any issues.

I know one can get passionate from time to time, but if you can remember to speak slowly for the benefit of the translators, that would be good, as well.

With that, I would now like to introduce our witnesses for the first panel.

We welcome Mr. Pierre-Claude Poulin, of the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées.

Welcome.

As well, from Bridges of Love of York Region, we have Mr. Casbarro here in the room. Welcome.

As you know, each of you has five minutes to give an opening statement.

Go ahead, Mr. Poulin.

[Pierre-Claude Poulin, Responsible for the Income and Taxation Committee for Retirees Without an Employer Pension, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon everyone.

My name is Pierre-Claude Poulin and I'm responsible for the Income and Taxation Committee of the Association québécoise de la défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées.

Our association is apolitical. It has 30,000 retiree members, the majority of whom are without an employer pension. That's the main problem with Canada's pension systems.

When seniors, who represent approximately 20% of Canada's population, are faced with the closing of thousands of seniors’ residences, are victims of eviction and sometimes homelessness, not to mention insolvency, urgent action should have been taken long before now.

In 2023, 39% of Quebec retirees needed financial support from the guaranteed income supplement, a form of social assistance to help those at or below the Canadian poverty line, which is currently set at $21,634. These retirees are not eligible for refundable tax credits for health services, including optometric care, prescription drugs, hearing aids and so on. Also in 2023, 49% of retirees were at the income level for which no taxes had to be paid. They were therefore at the same taxation level as those receiving social assistance or funds from the GIS. However, these retirees had paid into a small pension that provided the equivalent of social assistance, meaning the GIS. So 10% of retirees earned and saved enough money for their retirement without drawing any benefits. This situation resulted from the fact that OAS benefits did not increase enough, meaning that some significant catching up is required.

It's worth pointing out that in 1927, Canada was a world leader in old age security. It was a model for other countries to follow in terms of implementing a financial old age security system. Canada was a world leader in providing economic support to its retirees.

Yet in 2023, Canada, a member country of the G7, is now ranked 13th among OECD countries in terms of economic support in the form of basic pensions for its retirees. In the documents I tabled, you will see all of the options and attempts that have been made to bring old age security up to speed again.

As I don't have a lot of time, I will move on immediately to the problems that were caused by the failure to increase OAS benefits in recent years, particularly with respect to housing. GIS assistance is now based on an economic index—the official poverty line—which is based on what is called the market basket measure.

In provinces and regions that provide housing assistance, the amount is based on an income of $32,000. Individuals with an income of under $32,000 are entitled to affordable housing, housing from the municipal housing bureau, or co-op housing. For support to retirees in Canada, the index is based on an income of $21,000. So there is a $10,000 gap to be filled.

Municipal taxation is another problem. Municipal building taxes are increasing more rapidly than OAS benefits. That's a problem when life expectancy is 83 or 85 years, meaning that for 23 or 25 years, people are living solely on the low level of OAS pension indexing, without anything else that could increase income and enable them to remain in their homes.

There is also the homelessness problem. Homelessness has been rising among seniors in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. In July 2021 in Montreal, 38% of homeless people who found themselves forced to live in parks were men aged 72 to 74. Because they had been unable to renew their leases, they decided not to do so because they were sure they could find lower cost housing. When they failed to do so by July 1, they ended up living in tent cities for a short while.

Another factor is the closing of seniors’ retirement homes. In Quebec, there are now only 975 such facilities left. The main reason for the closings is that most of the residents are living on the GIS, and the OAS is not increasing rapidly enough.

The other point I wanted to add was about bankruptcies—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We need to wrap it up, Mr. Poulin.

[Pierre-Claude Poulin]

Okay, I'll do that.

In the event of bankruptcy, Canada protects debtors whose income is below $36,000 per year. Debtors' assets cannot be seized if their income is below that. However, the Government of Canada supports retirees whose income is below $21,000. That leads to enormous gaps. It would therefore be useful to do a better job of OAS planning .

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Poulin.

Mr. Casbarro, you have five minutes.

[Alessandro Casbarro, Co-Founder, Bridges of Love York Region]

Thank you.

My name is Alessandro Casbarro and I am honoured to represent Bridges of Love of York Region, a seniors non-profit organization committed to enhancing the lives of seniors in our community. Our organization operates on the fundamental belief that every senior deserves to age in place with dignity, independence and respect.

Bridges of Love of York Region provides snow removal and lawn maintenance services to seniors in need, allowing them to remain in their homes and age in place comfortably. Our team works tirelessly to ensure seniors have the support they need to navigate the challenges of aging while maintaining their autonomy and quality of life. Through our programs and services, we strive to create a supportive community where seniors feel valued, engaged and empowered.

In our work, we have had the privilege of engaging with countless seniors in our community and listening to their stories, concerns and aspirations. As we all know, Canada's senior population is growing rapidly. With that, the challenges they face are becoming increasingly complex. Expenses for basic necessities such as housing, utilities, groceries and health care continue to rise, often outpacing the income of our seniors, especially those reliant on fixed incomes like old age security pensions.

In recent years, we have witnessed a disturbing trend where many seniors are struggling to make ends meet and are forced to make difficult decisions between paying for essential needs and compromising their quality of life. This is particularly concerning as it directly impacts their ability to age in place with dignity and independence, which is a fundamental principle we strive to uphold.

One of the most distressing consequences of this financial strain is the prospect of seniors having to sell their homes, which they have worked so hard to obtain and maintain over the years. For many seniors, their homes represent a place of comfort, stability and cherished moments. It is where they have raised families, celebrated milestones and built their lives. The thought of having to part with their homes due to financial constraints is deeply distressing for seniors, as it not only disrupts their sense of security and stability but also severs the ties to their community and support networks. Selling one's home is often seen as a last resort for seniors—a decision made out of necessity rather than choice, one that can have profound emotional and psychological impacts.

At Bridges of Love of York Region, we firmly believe that seniors should not have to face the prospect of selling their homes simply to afford basic necessities or cover rising expenses. Our homes are more than just bricks and mortar. They are symbols of our hard work, perseverance and the memories we hold dear.

By increasing the amount of the full pension provided to seniors under the Old Age Security Act, as proposed in Bill C-319, we can help alleviate some of the financial burdens faced by seniors and ensure they can afford to remain in their homes with dignity and independence. This is not just about financial assistance. It is about honouring the contributions and sacrifices made by our seniors and affirming their right to age in place.

In conclusion, I urge this committee to consider the profound impact that the rising cost of living has had on the well-being of our seniors and to support measures that enhance their financial security and independence. By prioritizing the needs of our aging population, we can build a more inclusive and compassionate society for all Canadians.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Casbarro.

Before we begin, I want to welcome Mrs. Roberts and Mr. Arya to the committee today.

We will begin with Mrs. Roberts for six minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is going to be for Mr. Casbarro.

I want to commend you. I know your mom is involved in the foundation that was started—correct me if I'm wrong—three years ago. It is a service that I've been honoured to participate in. I've visited many of the seniors and heard the same stories that you're hearing.

Could you share with the committee what you're hearing about the high cost of living, the carbon tax, the tax on food, the tax on fuel and the tax on their natural gas bill? Could you share some of those thoughts with us?

[Alessandro Casbarro]

Through the chair to MP Roberts, thank you for that question.

Recently, at a seminar we hosted—which I know you were able to attend, as well—two seniors came up to me. They are husband and wife. The husband requires knee surgery. He's been putting it off because they've been having such a difficult time making ends meet. They're concerned about how they can afford to pay for the walker he would need after that.

We hear countless stories just like this one. Seniors are doing everything in their power to try to make ends meet. That's why the services we provide are so important. They can't afford another $600 expense for snow removal or $500 for lawn maintenance when they're barely getting by every week. Another increase on the carbon tax might just be the straw that breaks the camel's back. They can't afford that anymore.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I know you raise money to help seniors. What other avenues do you seek out to help seniors? I know it's a charitable organization. What other support are you receiving from different levels of government?

[Alessandro Casbarro]

We've applied for the New Horizons grant through the federal government, as well as for a number of grants through the province.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

One of the seniors who spoke at the committee shared with me her story of having to cut back on her groceries. The reason she has to do this is that she doesn't want to have to move in with her children. However, she is realizing this might be a reality. She's not going to have that choice because of the cost of living in the home where she raised her numerous children.

What can you say about what we need to do to ensure that the seniors who raised us and built this country...? What would you recommend? How can this government enhance their lives?

[Alessandro Casbarro]

We've had the pleasure of working and speaking with gerontologists, who have enlightened us about the importance of aging in place. There are psychological, emotional and mental health issues that arise when you lose that tie to the community where your cherished moments have taken place.

The government needs to address the rising inflation that is making it very difficult for seniors to make ends meet. We hear often about cutting back on groceries, driving or whatever it may be. We fundamentally believe they deserve to age in place. They worked their entire lives. Many of them built this country. We need to ensure we can take care of them in their senior years.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Casbarro, I want to go back to one thing.

I know many of the seniors who come to your events. A lot of them say it's the only thing they have in life and that's because of the outreach you provide. At one of the events I was at, you had a health person there explaining yoga and how they can stay healthy. A lot of them want to stay healthy because they can't afford medication. When I heard that, it broke my heart. They can't afford the medication to keep them alive. They are doing everything they possibly can to ensure they stay healthy. I thought that was good. She said she worked with the therapist you had to learn more about what she can do to stay healthy and reduce her costs.

Do you find a lot of seniors are complaining about the cost of living, especially food, groceries, medication, gas and taxes on their property? A lot of them are saying their property taxes are going up.

[Alessandro Casbarro]

Yes, we are definitely hearing that.

On top of the services we provide, as you mentioned, it's very important to keep them socially engaged, whether it be a seminar or a social event. They know we are here to help them in whatever way that may be. Yes, they have made it clear to us and to you that it's becoming increasingly difficult to make ends meet. A lot of them are dipping into their savings or forced to go back to work. If those savings run out, where do they go? They worked so hard their entire lives to provide for their children, grandchildren or whoever it may be, and they built this country. We're asking them to go back to work when they're supposed to be retired. I don't think that's right.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you.

I want to ask Mr. Poulin, who mentioned that 32% of seniors.... This population is growing. I read recently that, by 2030, 25% of our population will be seniors. Does that scare you in any way?

[Pierre-Claude Poulin]

It really does. I'm worried about a lot of things. What elected representatives have been providing for retirees is simply not up to the mark. Nor is the economic mindfulness of our governments.

In 1966, the Canada pension plan and the Quebec pension plan were established. To administer the Canada pension plan, old age security was increased, but it could not be increased by much. Social assistance was therefore introduced in the form of the guaranteed income supplement, which was to be a short-term measure.

We are no longer in 1966. That was a long time ago, and it's still there. Until this problem has been dealt with, some retirees will end up at the poverty line. That's the case for 49% of retirees.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Roberts.

We'll go to Mr. Arya for six minutes, please.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I came into politics about 10 years back with three main objectives. One was to secure retirement income for all seniors. Another was affordable housing. The third was to make sure that Canada remains at the forefront of the knowledge-based economy, so that the prosperity we enjoy today is available for future generations.

The topic of old age security is quite close to me. We have done quite a bit on that. We have reformed the CPP. When the CPP was first designed, way back, almost every employee had a workplace pension. They then had the CPP and their own personal savings. It was targeted to cover about 25% of their retirement income. With the reform we did for the CPP, we are now targeting that to go up to almost 35% of people's retirement income. We have taken quite a few measures over a period of time. We all know that we permanently increased the OAS by 10% for seniors over 75.

Mr. Casbarro, you deal with seniors. What is the number of seniors who live in poverty in Canada?

[Alessandro Casbarro]

I don't have those numbers right now, but I could share them with you after.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I'm sure you'll agree that whenever people are in need, we need to target support to those people, instead of giving it to people who are not in that need.

The number of seniors living in poverty across Canada is around 250,000. We have an obligation as a society to take care of our seniors. We have the duty to provide them affordable housing. We have committed.... When people come and ask me about affordable housing, my first question to them is, “Where is your proposal?” We have money available and ready to construct affordable housing. Where is their proposal? We have taken targeted measures for people in poverty, including seniors. That is the way I suggest we should go, instead of giving blanket support to the people who are not in need.

This is for Mr. Casbarro again. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. Do you know what the total amount of spending is for social protection at all levels of the government? What's the approximate amount? Every year, how much does the government spend on social protection like old age security, family benefits, disability, unemployment insurance, etc.?

[Alessandro Casbarro]

I don't know.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

It was $235 billion in 2017, and it's increasing.

I'm not saying it's just the federal government. The provincial governments, the territories and the federal government are all looking at ways to support those in need in society. Among those at the forefront are seniors, obviously.

Mr. Poulin, I want to ask you the same thing. Do you agree with me that we should focus the support from the government on the people who are in need of support, instead of giving benefits to people who don't need them?

[Pierre-Claude Poulin]

I understand what you're saying.

However, I find that there are genuine inequalities that I don't understand. In our system, some retirees live on social assistance, meaning the GIS. Others receive small pensions through the registered retirement savings plan or the Canada pension plan. The latter, who are ineligible for the GIS, end up with exactly the same amount of income as the others. That means that 39% receive social assistance and don't pay any taxes. As 49% of retirees do not pay taxes, that means 10% of them paid into their retirement and do not receive anything from refundable tax credits.

I find that inequitable and unfair. Setting a priority on enhancing the OAS would be helpful. That would require getting the funds from people with a higher income.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

I have limited time, Mr. Poulin.

I agree with you. We have to provide support for the people who are in need. There's no disagreement there, but I don't think you answered my question.

Should we also give financial support to the people who do not need it?