Human Resources Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Committee members, I call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting 102 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, October 18, 2023, the committee will begin the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-319, an act to amend the Old Age Security Act.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person and virtually by Zoom. You can choose to participate in the official language of your choice by using the translation services, with your headset in the room and, if you're appearing virtually, click on the world icon at the bottom of your Surface and choose the official language of your choice. I advise members to please be conscious of our translators and keep your earpiece away from the mic, as it causes popping, which can be harmful to the translators.

As a reminder as well, all comments should be directed through me, as chair. For those in the room, please raise your hand to be recognized. For those appearing virtually, use the “raise hand” icon and I will recognize you.

Finally, I would like to introduce Mr. Kevin Wagdin, director, old age security policy and legislation, from the Department of Employment and Social Development. Mr. Wagdin is present to answer questions you may have, as required. As well we have legislative counsel with us for any questions on the bill.

Madame Chabot, is Madame Larouche joining us?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair. I didn't notice this before, but in fact I am getting some feedback in the earpiece when you're speaking. Mrs. Gray pointed it out and....

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It could be one of the mics.

Mrs. Gray, is it okay?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

It's like an echo. You're talking and then we're hearing it in our ear a couple of seconds later.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I know what it is. It's because they're virtual. The translation is virtual.

A couple of weeks ago we had that happen to us. There was a delay.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

We're hearing what you're saying twice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It's fine, obviously, on the French line.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

When you speak in English, it's doubled up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Are you politely telling me that you do not want to hear me twice? I get it.

I'm being told it's fine and that it's meeting the quality standards. If it does become an issue, get my attention.

Are we ready to begin clause-by-clause of Bill C-319?

(On clause 1)

Go ahead, Ms. Zarrillo.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have an amendment to clause 1, which I believe was circulated to the committee in both official languages.

Could you verify that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes, Ms. Zarrillo, I have your amendment.

Do you wish to read it?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We heard from witnesses that the cap could be higher. The NDP believes that the cap should be higher on being able to have employment income before—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, I have point of order, just for a second.

Could we have the mic turned up so that we can hear MP Zarrillo?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Excuse me, Ms. Zarrillo. I'm not hearing you well either.

Could you begin again?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have an amendment to clause 1. The NDP believes that the limit on the income allowed before clawback should be raised in this bill. I will read my amendment.

It is that Bill C-319, in clause 1, be amended by replacing lines 17 to 21 on page 1 with the following:

(i) the lesser of $13,000 and the combined amount, and

(ii) if the combine amount is greater than $13,000, the lesser of $13,000 and half of the amount by which the combined amount exceeds $13,000,

I can give some explanation or an example of that if needed, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I will allow an explanation, and then I have Mr. Van Bynen on a point of order.

Ms. Zarrillo, give a brief explanation.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

As I said, we're looking at increasing the cap of income allowed to be earned before clawback to $13,000. That's what we are asking for.

How this would work is that it would mean that the amount of income that would be exempt would be the lesser of $13,000 or whatever they earned. For example, if someone earned $14,000, the exemption would be $13,000. Half of the difference between the $13,000 and the $14,000—that being $1,000—would be clawed back, if that is the language we want to use. It would be clawed back and the worker would be able to earn $13,500.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

Mr. Van Bynen, do you have a point of order?

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This substantially changes parts of the bill.

Could you clarify as to whether this motion is in order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

As you recall, this morning the Speaker was clear in the chamber on the power of committees. My role, as your chair, is simply to conduct the meeting.

I will give my ruling on the amendment proposed by Ms. Zarrillo and that will answer you question, Mr. Van Bynen. As I indicated, the Speaker was clear in the chamber this morning on the scope of amendments at committees, but committees still give their direction.

I will briefly....

Did you have your hand up, Mrs. Roberts?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Can I just ask a question for clarity purposes?

Is the $13,000 on the...? Say, for example, we have someone who is self-employed. Is that on the self-employed net income or on the gross income?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I'll ask Mr. Wagdin to give a technical answer on that.

[Kevin Wagdin, Director, Old Age Security Policy and Legislation, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you.

The exemption would apply to the total amount of the person's employment income or self-employment income combined after their self-employment deductions have been made.