Evidence of meeting #105 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Sandra Hassan
I do not have that answer, but I can certainly look into that and respond in couple of days to the committee.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Thank you. If you could table that with or forward it to the committee, we thank you very much for that.
Based on that, we've heard that public sector workers are feeling undervalued with the number of outsourced contractors and consultants who are being used by your government, which is spending billions of dollars. Is this something you're hearing, Minister, within your department? Are you hearing concerns from workers in your department about being replaced by those outside contractors and consultants?
9:35 a.m.
Sandra Hassan
Again, I will answer that question. In regard to ESDC, we do have external contractors coming to assist us, mostly on short-term or specialized contracts. There are a number of contracts that we do have. We closely monitor those contracts, and we'll provide the numbers.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Thank you.
To you, Minister, we also heard testimony today about the demotivating factor. We know there is an increase in people with mental health concerns in the country. We did hear testimony today that it does create extra stress and concern for workers, knowing that the government is using outside consultants and contractors extensively. What can you say to that? Is this something you're seeing, or even hearing, or are you very far removed from the workers who you represent?
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Oh, that's loaded.
No, I'm not far removed from the workers that I represent, but I can't say it is something that has been brought to my attention by those workers. I don't know if the deputy might have anything to add.
9:35 a.m.
Sandra Hassan
No, I have nothing to add on this specific question.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
We've heard testimony at other committees. For example, there was the president of the Customs and Immigration Union, who recently appeared at the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, who said, “we believe the goal of the [ArriveCAN] app is to replace officers”. That was testimony he gave.
He also said, “Once the ArriveCAN app came in, members brought concerns forward to the union, which we tried to bring to the employer. Really, there seemed to be no willingness to take our input. Had our members been consulted early on, I think a great deal of what happened would not have happened."
This was testimony at that committee.
We do know that the government is using a record number of high-paid consultants and contractors, many of whom are billing out at considerably higher rates than government workers would work at. We also know that many of those consultants didn't actually do any work. For example, on ArriveCAN specifically, we know that 72% of the work that was paid for was not actually done.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
The point of order is irrelevance. We're here to talk about Bill C-58.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Based on that, Minister, with the amount of contractors that the government is using, is this not a concern of yours that you're hearing this concern from the workers themselves within the government?
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
If there is a concern amongst workers about anything, then it is a concern of mine. This is the first I've heard of the testimony you're citing. Like anything, I will certainly take that into consideration.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
You seem to be a little out of touch with what's going on, but I'll go to another line of questioning here.
You talk a lot about workers, particularly in your province. That's why I thought it was remarkable that your good friend Andrew Furey, the Liberal Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, wrote the federal government saying that workers can't afford the Liberal carbon tax. Actually, the first word in his letter is “workers”.
We know that the carbon tax is a massive tax on workers. How can your government continue to go forward with increasing the carbon tax?
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Are we going to get to Bill C-58 at any point in time?
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
We're talking about workers here today, Minister. Would you like to answer the question?
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Ms. Gray, the time has concluded.
We are here to review Bill C-58. Please keep relevant to the general tone of the bill.
Mr. Sheehan, you have six minutes.
March 21st, 2024 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much, Minister, and the deputy and Ms. Proulx, for being here.
Minister, in the earlier panel, Lana Payne talked about a 71-year-old grandmother who's been replaced. She has been replaced for about a month right now. She has children and grandchildren. Obviously, that was very concerning.
Minister, can you describe how Bill C-58 will help create some fairness and some balance and help people like that 71-year-old grandmother who is currently being replaced by replacement workers?
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I know that earlier in this process it was inferred that somehow I'm out of touch with workers. I do not believe that to be the case. One thing that has become abundantly clear to me in the now two and a half years that I have been with the labour ministry is how utterly gutting it is for any worker to stand by, under great pain and at great risk to the financial stability and well-being of their family, and see somebody else do their job, their work. It is a scar that is left on that person.
Just think of the pride and dignity that any one of us enjoys in the work we do, as hard as it can be on some days. People usually take pride in their work, no matter what the job. Most do. When they are told that their effort is utterly disposable, and that they are immediately replaceable.... This is done before your eyes, at a time when you are suffering—financially, mentally and perhaps physically in the arduous process of having to go on strike. No worker wants to go on strike. It's just a falsehood: No one wants to go on strike.
When that happens, and when inevitably there is some sort of reconciliation and you are back doing your job, do you think you're going to forget that? Do you think you're going to forget the indignity you suffered because an employer looked at you and said you were utterly replaceable? It poisons the workplace for generations.
We don't need it anymore. We're wiser now. There was a time back in the day when somehow we thought that was okay. We all know better now. That's not how you treat people. Clearly, if you're going to have a level playing field, an even bargaining table, you cannot have one side with the ability to do that and the other side with the inability to do that. You can't.
Stay focused on the table. Stay focused on the table. That's where the deals will be reached. That's where you will see mutual respect. That's where you will see some semblance of trust going forward to make sure that we continue to have agreements and our economy remains stable, certain and growing.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you.
During your testimony, you referred to the tripartisan approach that you've taken in the past. You also talked about how this piece of legislation is different from past PMBs.
Could you expand on the importance of your tripartisan approach to this piece of legislation and how we got here today?
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
We had extensive consultations. I attended them all, or at least the two main ones that we had. We even went to the trouble of making sure that we had the seating arrangements rights. I didn't want a big table with labour on one side, employers on the other and government on another. We tried to get more creative about it and had them interspersed so people realized that we were all in this together.
As you know, when one union head was berating employers for past behaviour, those employers were sitting right next to him. It was really important that we arrived at those things together. The draft legislation, the legislation itself, and what we're talking about here with Bill C-58 is a direct result of it.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you for that.
Again, with the past private members' bills that were about banning replacement workers, how is the legislation different? How was the process different for Bill C-58?
Can you also expand on why it is that we need time to get this right and how much time we have proposed to make sure that, when it comes into force, it's done correctly? Could you touch on that, too?
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
We're laying a lot on some people who know this job better than anybody I have ever seen. I have been able to witness first hand the ability of our mediators and conciliators and the tremendous abilities of the the CIRB. We are going to be asking a lot of them.
This is a seminal piece of legislation that is before this committee and the House. When we talk about it being a historic piece of legislation for collective bargaining in this country, we are not exaggerating. This Irishman is not exaggerating in this particular case. What it does mean is that the people who we entrust to make sure that stability and certainty are arrived at, the people who bring people together at the table, have asked us for time. I listen to them very, very carefully. They will be the ones who will be carrying out the work.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal