Human Resources Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'll continue on the theme of working with other levels of government. I think we're all in agreement that it takes all three levels of government to get us out of the housing crisis.

I want to speak to the issue that you referenced earlier in terms of our relationship with the provinces. We have a reluctant partner in the Province of Ontario. There are no affordable housing programs. In fact, there is no plan. The only part of the province's housing plan that has worked out is a very successful “stag and doe”, as you know. I would say that it's pretty hard to create funds like the encampment fund, Canada Builds and the infrastructure fund.

They've recently defaulted on their bilateral agreement with us. What is the plan in terms of dealing with a problem like Premier Ford in the Province of Ontario when they've shown over the last number of years that they're really not interested in assisting?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not here to demonize partners at any level of government. I want to find a way to work with them. I don't want to be engaged in public spats with people we need to work with. At the same time, I have a responsibility to use the authorities that have been vested in me in a manner that Canadians would see as responsible.

I actually think that with Ontario we have a unique opportunity to partner through the Canada builds program. I think they sincerely want to build more homes. We have different perspectives when it comes to putting money behind affordable housing projects in some instances, which led to the default that you mentioned on the national housing strategy bilateral agreement.

We initially saw a plan put forward that only demonstrated that they would achieve 6% of the target they'd agreed to. They went back to the drawing board and got to 28%. We offered a conditional acceptance on the basis that they would have to provide details on how they would achieve the target they agreed to, and that was a bridge too far for now, but we remain engaged with them, and I hope to find solutions.

We're going to make sure that the money we've budgeted for affordable housing in Ontario supports affordable housing in Ontario. Whether we do that in partnership with the province will depend on their willingness to come to the table as well. I like all of the people involved at a personal level. I want to work with them to find solutions. I think we have unique opportunities, because it's not just the bilateral agreement. It's working with the province for infrastructure funding opportunities, for low-cost financing programs, for transit solutions. We can't dismiss partners at any level of government. We have to work together.

When we step up and put money on the table in an area that has traditionally been viewed as the responsibility of the provinces, we're saying we want to lead, we want to be a partner, but a true partnership involves more than one party.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

I also thank the witnesses for being here to talk about the important issue of the right to housing in our society. We must always keep in mind that housing is a right.

Thank you, Minister, for not demonizing provinces or cities.

It’s rather spectacular, what we can see here or in the government’s announcements. We get the feeling that there will be an election soon. That means more frequent housing announcements. I won’t go on about it.

Regarding the series of announcements you’ve been making daily, Minister, would you say they’re an admission of failure of the National Housing Strategy that your government set up?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for your question.

No, I do not agree with your point of view. I think that the national strategy surpassed its initial objective. For example, nearly 500,000 housing units benefitted from the National Housing Strategy. The target was therefore surpassed. As for affordable housing, the 2023 target was 120,000 housing units and the result was more than 150,000.

That means, in reality, that we have to step up our efforts because things have changed.

When I look at the challenges we were facing—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I think you summarized your answer effectively.

Since I only have six minutes, I will ask you more questions, if I may.

You know the situation in Quebec. You know that in Quebec, we are a nation with its own programs, with an ecosystem of programs to set up measures for affordable and social housing. Furthermore, Quebec is just about the only place where those kinds of projects are happening. You mentioned that only 4% of housing in Canada is social housing, compared to the average of 8% among OECD countries.

As for the amount of money you’re going to invest, how much will be given to Quebec?

Are you ready to give this money directly to Quebec so that it can complete projects?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you.

Normally, funding granted to Quebec is based on its population. That’s an example, but I think we have the opportunity to consider Quebec’s fair share in terms of currently existing programs. It’s different for trade programs contingent on economic requirements. Moreover, when it comes to support programs for affordable housing, it’s important to support those kinds of efforts, especially because Quebec is a national leader in this area. That’s why we’re investing $900 million directly to accelerate housing construction. Furthermore, Quebec is the only province investing the same amount to build 8,000 affordable housing units.

I’ve had a lot of conversations with my counterpart, Minister Duranceau, to discuss the new program and make sure Quebec gets its fair share.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

If Quebec is a leader—it’s well known—a significant number of programs, between the announcement and the willingness to go forward, still take months or even years to launch. That’s because the federal government imposes conditions on Quebec which, as you know, has its Civil Code and Régie du logement, as well as a lot of infrastructure and an ecosystem for housing.

Why not transfer funding directly to Quebec, respect its jurisdictions and accelerate implementation of everything to do with housing? We need social and affordable housing and that’s what we have to focus on. Why not transfer funding directly to Quebec, rather than impose conditions on cities and municipalities?

You recognized that Quebec is a national leader in this area; don’t you think that should translate into concrete measures?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

During discussions with my counterparts in Quebec, I saw better results not in terms of defining conditions, but in terms of establishing shared priorities. My discussions with Minister Duranceau led to us defining opportunities for Quebec to improve matters that fall under the province’s areas of jurisdiction. Furthermore, these discussions created an opportunity to determine partnership opportunities with Quebec.

I want the process to go faster, but I also want to get the best results. In my experience, conversations and negotiations lead to better results, even if there are a lot of conditions attached.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Angus, you have six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Fraser. It's good to see you.

When I was a little boy in Timmins, my Irish granny used to call my Scottish granny, and we'd go uptown. All the old mining widows would sit at the Woolworths, and the kids would go window shopping. Nobody wants to go into the downtown anymore because we're hit with the triple crisis—mental health, opioid addiction and homelessness.

The city is doing extraordinary work, but they are not equipped for this job, so they rely on Reaching Home. However, that program funding is spread across Cochrane District, which is 144,000 square kilometres with over a dozen communities and numerous first nations.

They are doing all this on $944,696 a year, and yet you've told them that they're going to get a 50% cut, so they're going to do all this on $465,000. Why would you walk away on northern Ontario when this crisis is hitting us full force in the face?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Angus.

As I've shared with you before, I'm familiar with the situation in Timmins. My sister is a resident and runs a business in town, and has been trying to do her part to participate in community efforts to help address some of these circumstances.

First of all, thank you to the service providers who are helping vulnerable people.

I have what I believe will be good news. It will take a few months to sort out the final details at a community level.

The reason that there was a drop in funding was not a cut to the program but the exhaustion of the pandemic-era increase that we saw through Reaching Home to help address short-term pressures. We've decided that in the recent federal budget, should it pass, we want to re-establish that higher level of funding.

We expect, in the months ahead, to be able to notify communities of what that increased funding will mean at a local level. Given that you've reached out to my office, we'll be sure to provide you with an answer as quickly as we can as to what it means for the communities in your constituency.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That would be really important, because in the Kenora district, 33.5% of children live in poverty. That's staggering. They're facing cuts of over 50%. North Bay DSSAB have been trying to create this integrated homelessness hub, yet their funding is scheduled to drop by 70%, so they would get by on $245,986. What are you going to buy with that? Nothing.

Can I go back to northern Ontario and tell our communities that they're not being left behind and that the funding is going to be bridged? They're being told right now to prepare for cuts, so they're having to make decisions now about walking away from programs that help the homeless.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If I had the specific amount for each community, I would give you that information today. You'll see in the budget that there was a major top-up through Reaching Home. That will translate into an increase. I will get the specific dollar amount to you as soon as we have it.

We should also discuss the other opportunities through newly funded programs, including addressing encampments and challenges with homelessness, over and above Reaching Home, that are in the current federal budget. I'm glad you're using your voice to draw attention to this problem, because it is a real problem. It's not fair that people in a country as wealthy as Canada go to bed without a roof over their head.

I want to help. I can tell you that we're putting money behind that desire to help as well and we're going to work with members across the country to help ensure that community organizations and their regions are supported.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I appreciate that, because I see what's happening in my community of Timmins and I know it's as bad, and worse, in other northern communities. In northern Ontario, we've always known that if we don't stick together, we fall really hard.

One of the efforts was by the Thunder Bay Social Services Administration Board. They have the highest opioid-related mortality rates in all of the Ontario public health unit region—77.2 per 100,000. They've reached out to work with Cochrane district. They've reached out to work with Kenora. Everybody's coming to the table to try to find solutions. It's the one thing that's really inspiring in this crisis.

They've asked to have the government recognize the work they're doing through Reaching Home, because they're also taking the enormous pressure off Treaty No. 9 communities, in which we have 18 to 20 people living in three-bedroom homes. Kenora, Thunder Bay and Cochrane district are under enormous pressure from the housing crisis that is 10,000 times worse up in Treaty No. 9 territory.

They've been reaching out to Mushkegowuk and to NAN. Would the federal government be willing to sit with them and to say that it recognizes the larger northern Ontario issue? A single municipality simply can't take this on.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

When communities come to understand that they can care about one another as much as they do about themselves, that approach is going to help more vulnerable people.

If your request is that we make time, we will make time. If your request is to personally sit down with me to go over some of these details, I will make time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It's on the record now, folks. Charlie Angus just asked him to sit down and make time. You're all watching. You're all witnesses. We're going to sit down and we're going to make time.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I look forward to it immensely, Charlie.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Angus, you have 50 seconds left. Are you finished?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I got my answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you. Mr. Angus. You are the first one to end on time.

We will now go to the second round.

Mr. Jivani, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Fraser, I believe I heard you say to our colleague from Quebec that you believed the national housing strategy had exceeded its objectives. The Nanos Pocketbook Index numbers that came out this week showed that young Canadians are at an all-time low in the history of the index with respect to how they feel about their personal finances.

Do you consider that to be exceeding your objectives?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

To be clear, I was partway through an answer but I wanted to respect Madame Chabot's opportunity to move on to the next question.

It has exceeded the targets that were set at the time. We need to change the policy approach because the landscape has changed. When we launched the national housing strategy, it was focused disproportionately on affordable housing for low-income families back in 2017.

In the last few years, things have fundamentally shifted. Young people and middle-class families are feeling the affordability pinch. The housing shortage is impacting all of us, which is why we've seen such a rapid increase in the policy adoption baked into the national housing plan that we put out recently.

We understand that we need to do more and do differently.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Would it be fair then to say that your government, which promised affordable housing to young people in 2015, continues to promise it now and that perhaps your objectives have been wrong over the past nine years and that young Canadians may be right to not believe your promises today?