Human Resources Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not asking anyone to believe promises. I'm asking them to compare the plans that different folks are putting on the table; and there's no contest. We're the only party that's put forward a serious plan to address the national housing crisis, and those who work in the housing space are saying so.

I do think we needed to do more. Had we moved sooner, we would have been further along. However, it was the first time in 30 years that the federal government stepped back into the affordable housing space, and the national housing strategy was a positive development in that regard.

In particular, since 2021 and the latter part of the pandemic, we've seen a lot of the housing stock built up. We've seen that the supply has been exhausted, and the cost of building, with inflationary pressures, has increased, which has a negative impact on the pace of building. Therefore, we need to do more.

I'm not going to look anybody in the eye and tell them things are perfect when it comes to housing. I'm going to be the first to say that I know we need to do more, but then I'm going to be the person who actually goes and does it.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

As you say, you want to do more. I would like to draw your attention to an example from the Edmonton area, a young man named Harley, who I think is an example similar to many young people I hear from and many of our colleagues hear from. He explained that he did everything right, everything he was asked to do. He worked hard. He went to school. He got a high-paying job. Now he wants to move into a bigger place, and rent has become so high that he says, “If I move into a nicer place, it's basically like I'm working a minimum wage job just trying to make ends meet.”

Where does Harley fit into you exceeding your objectives?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Harley is the kind of person we had in mind when we developed the national housing plan. I'll be the first to say that, although we may have exceeded the objectives that we set in terms of number of units at the outset of the national housing strategy, we now need to do more because the circumstances have changed, and Harley's not the only person in that situation.

Harley fits into our plan to help build more homes by accelerating the pace of home building, by reducing the cost of building and by making it easier to build more homes. Harley fits into our plan, when we're looking at helping people transition into home ownership. Harley fits into our plan when we look at the renters' bill of rights we're putting forward. There are a number of different—

I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Jivani.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Would it be fair to say, though, that Harley has every good reason to be concerned, perhaps hearing you speak? Under your government, mortgage payments have doubled and rent payments have doubled, yet you seem to have a very different tone and message, when you talk about housing in this country, than a lot of young people do. When I hear young people speak, I hear words like “stuck”, “trapped” and “unfair”, and you're out here saying that you're exceeding objectives. That seems very tone-deaf to what's going on.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

To be clear, I don't think there has been enough done on housing, and we need to do more. I'm not trying to say that, because we exceeded a target that was established in 2017, all problems are solved, and I don't want to be misinterpreted in that regard. We need to do more.

I find it ironic, when I hear some of these arguments being advanced by the Conservative side, whereas you don't have measures in your plan to increase the pace of homebuilding.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Forgive me if you have frustrations with what you regard to be our party's position, but I think young people across this country are rightly frustrated that we were promised affordable housing in 2015, when you first got elected. It's nine years later, and the promises you're making are identical, while things have only gotten worse.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

With respect, the policies we're committing to are not identical. This is—as many observers will tell you—the most ambitious housing plan that Canada has seen in half a century. This is a different and more substantive plan than what was put out in 2017, because we've seen, in the last few years, affordability challenges mount at an extraordinary pace.

We want to do more to address this changing landscape. That's why we have significantly more tax measures to increase the pace of homebuilding. It's why we're working with municipalities to reduce barriers to building. It's why we're putting measures on the table to help young people get into the market, if they want to become owners, and to help build more rental stock to bring the price down, if they want to remain renters.

There are unique challenges that exist today that are different fundamentally from what existed even three years ago and not just nine years ago. We need to continue to adapt and increase our ambition if we're going to meet the needs of young people today.

I'm not asking them just to believe our words. I'm asking them to look at our plan and to see themselves in it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mr. Long, you have five minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to my colleagues.

Minister, thank you so much for coming. I certainly want to thank you personally for your leadership and the programs that have come to my beautiful riding of Saint John-Rothesay, whether it's through the housing accelerator fund, the co-investment fund or the rapid housing initiative. All of those federal programs are making a major difference in my riding.

Just let me say this, Minister. It does puzzle me when we look at the Conservatives and how critical they are, with really a lack of a plan to address this issue. They just don't put a plan forward. I mean, there are half-hearted measures. The leader of the Conservative Party just wants to fight with municipalities.

Obviously, the leader of the Conservative Party, in my opinion, has been hiding his plan and delaying debate on his private member's bill. If his plan is so great, why doesn't the Conservative leader just share his plan with Canadians?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Long, I can't speak for him, but I find it curious that the private member's bill he has put forward continues to be delayed. I expect it's because it has been widely criticized by folks who operate in the housing space. It's been very poorly received.

They did publish a plan, but it doesn't have any policies around some of the issues we've been asked about today. It doesn't have any policies that address municipal zoning reform. It doesn't have any policies that address development cost charges. It doesn't have any policies that address homelessness or affordable housing. What it actually does is very curious. It increases taxes on new rental construction by putting the GST back on units.

When you look at the proposed super fund, it represents a nearly 98% cut to funding to support municipalities to increase their targets. It applies in only 22 communities across Canada, none of which in my region would benefit. I look at some of the members represented here. Their plan specifically excludes some represented by the Conservative members here, including Muskoka, Durham and Kelowna. They don't benefit from the Conservative plan.

We see that it's got some bizarre policies around a NIMBY snitch line to hire a lot of public servants to answer the phone if somebody doesn't like their neighbour's housing policies.

When it comes to public land, it has a plan to sell off 6,000 properties to the highest bidder—with no control for affordability—that will forever release them from public ownership.

I expect, because the plan would have a severe negative impact on homebuilding in Canada, that's likely the reason why Mr. Poilievre won't bring it forward for debate in the House of Commons.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

I want to pivot to an article on CBC that came out this morning. I'll read the title: “Housing starts in New Brunswick lagging further behind Maritime neighbours in early 2024”. Here, I'm going to quote you from about five minutes ago. You said that “true partnership” includes “more than one party.”

True leadership is actually coming forth with programs. I find it curious that last September we dropped the GST on new rental builds, and provinces like Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island dropped their part of that tax also. The stats show that, in the last three months, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island have had triple the new apartment starts. New Brunswick says they can't afford it. I would argue that they can't afford not to do it. Again, it's frustrating to me when we all know that, really, housing is a provincial jurisdiction.

We've shown tremendous leadership in acknowledging that there's a massive problem and coming forth with programs. Minister, I wonder if you could comment on New Brunswick and Premier Higgs not dropping their share of the tax. We can see straight-up the impact that's having.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Starts may be up in New Brunswick, but they're not increasing at the same rate of other provinces that have made those measures. The assessment of the first three months in Nova Scotia, for example, shows that in the first quarter there have been more than 2,100 housing starts compared to, I think, 837 last year. It has blown by the all-time record, and some of the analysis I've reviewed attributes that to both the federal and the provincial decisions to remove the GST on new apartment construction in my home province.

We've seen significant increases in other provinces that have previously made similar decisions around GST. I saw Minister Nixon in Alberta a few years ago. In the past three years, there have been more housing starts in his province than in the previous 15 combined.

Working together, leveraging one another's opportunities to build on the work that we each can do, will allow us to accomplish a far greater level of homebuilding.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

My last question for you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Long, you're well over five minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, unfortunately, the homeless encampment crisis is the often subject of editorials and news stories.

In your last budget, you announced approximately $1 billion to fight homelessness and fund the Reaching Home program. Unfortunately, most of that money won’t be released until fiscal year 2026‑2027.

Last year, the Reaching Home program was cut by 3%. In my riding, which covers the Thérèse‑De Blainville RCM, the main organization that fights homelessness got a 13% budget cut for that program.

Considering that 80% of the $1 billion will be spent in 2026‑2027, how are you going to manage the Reaching Home program? Is this new money going to re-establish the funding slated for this program?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

The goal is to re-establish the stable level of funding that communities experienced when they had higher funding during the pandemic. Because those decisions have not been finalized, I hesitate to broadcast what it may mean for an individual community. As I offered with Mr. Angus, I'd be happy to provide information about these specific communities as soon as it's available.

Just for clarity, you've seen a drop not because there was a decision to cut the program. It was the end of the increased level of spending during the pandemic to address certain public health-related challenges that a lot of service providers were facing. We have decided to put more money into the program because the problem has worsened in a lot of communities and we want communities to have predictable funding over the next few years to be stable and to be able to provide a higher level of service.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You also announced $250 million in funding over two years, I think, for homeless encampments, with the condition that provinces and territories invest the same amount. Concretely, how are you going to take action on this in the short term?

The budget includes significant investments, I don’t deny it. That said, what should the government’s share of the endeavour be? Moreover, how can we accelerate things to solve these crises?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

When it comes to Quebec, I want to provide funding that reflects its population. I want the provinces to invest on the same level as the federal government to get the benefits. At the same time, to support the most vulnerable, it’s important to find other programs that promote affordable housing and address the issue of homelessness in communities.

Recently, I had a conversation with the Quebec minister for housing, Ms. France‑Élaine Duranceau. We talked about opportunities to work with Quebec. In the short term, we will have the opportunity to conclude significant agreements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Angus, you have two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

We have huge opportunities right now in northern Ontario. The mines are booming, and we have a lot of interest in immigration, but what's stopping us is housing.

We need fourplexes, co-op housing, seniors' residences and enormous amounts of urban first nations housing. Yet, for example, in Timmins, Mario Cortellucci and the Montemarano group just don't seem to want to come north because they can get everything they want from Doug the grifter in the Greenbelt.

How do communities like Timmins partner with the federal government to get these housing projects off the ground? They're ready to go, and this is holding our economy back.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There are a number of different ways. It depends on which kinds of housing projects you want to talk about.

We have low-cost financing opportunities that could apply in Timmins, as they could in Toronto, but those are driven by the market. There will be decisions by private sector developers who may want to take that low-cost financing opportunity.

There may be opportunities to negotiate a bilateral agreement with the province and to discuss the importance of workforce housing in strategically important locations, which I would suggest northern Ontario certainly is.

With respect to affordable housing opportunities, we have the chance to work directly with service providers or non-profits, which can apply directly through the affordable housing fund, for example. I don't want to just rhyme off 100 programs for you, but there are many opportunities.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The concern is that the private sector hasn't done the job and it's not going to do the job. That's been clear ever since Paul Martin promised it was going to do the job, and that's why we're in the crisis we're in.

At the same time, Doug Ford has hit only 19% of the targets. He claimed that houses that were already built should be counted as new. I mean, it's ridiculous. This man is failing our region in a dramatic way.

We have mayors ready to get to the table, and they're looking to the federal government. We know you're cutting deals with cities, but what about municipalities that are smaller? Doug Ford is not going to come up and do anything for our northern communities, but the communities are ready to go.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Not every community has benefited from direct deals with the federal government, but some have. There are indigenous communities in the Thunder Bay region that have benefited. There's additional money that we budgeted through the housing accelerator fund that presents opportunities for potentially fast-growing, economically important cities and communities in northern Ontario that could benefit as well.

The analysis is not complete, and I don't want to promise an outcome before the analysis has been conducted, but we do have opportunities to directly engage with cities in northern Ontario.

In addition, there's a unique opportunity, as we negotiate potential bilateral agreements with provincial governments, to look into regional fairness. That's important to me. I come from a part of Nova Scotia that for my whole life has existed outside of Halifax and that tended not to get the same public investment that our largest urban centre got.

I think fast-growing urban centres like Halifax deserve attention, but so do smaller communities, because people live there too, and they deserve to be treated fairly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

I'm now going to use my prerogative as chair, unless somebody overrules me, to allocate the few minutes we have left in this round. I will give three minutes to the official opposition and I will give a question to Mr. Morrice, unless I'm overruled by the committee.

I'm not hearing anything.

Monsieur Berthold, you have three minutes, please.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fraser, July 1 is an important date in Quebec. Do you know why?