Human Resources Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Raymond Sullivan]

Time matters, and it adds to the cost of the project. Fortunately, a lot of large urban centres have chosen to prioritize non-market developments and accelerate them through the approval process, which makes a considerable difference. A lot of these projects have contributions from all three orders of government, so the municipality itself has a stake in the success of the project.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Is that a bit of a newer development, in terms of how cities deal with housing?

[Raymond Sullivan]

Some cities have been doing it for a while, and some cities might be doing it newly.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Have you had to deal with the CMHC?

[Raymond Sullivan]

Yes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

How long do they generally take to approve funding and low-cost loans for non-profit housing?

[Raymond Sullivan]

From what I understand, the turnaround times have been shortening, but they are quite long.

The challenge is the way programs aimed at the non-market sector are structured. The interest rate is only locked in against the first draw of the loan, which means after the project has started construction. That opens up quite a bit of risk for the project.

I think an improvement would be to commit to a fixed rate at an earlier point in the application stage, so there's more certainty going forward.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Is it true that one of the direct causes of the lengthy time frames and delays at the CMHC has, in some cases, been projects that were initially approved no longer pencilling in or being viable?

[Raymond Sullivan]

That was certainly the case while interest rates were rising rapidly. Projects that got a green light when interest rates were at a certain level, and then increased by as much as one percentage point by the time they got into construction, became at risk.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Do you have a sense of how many units didn't go ahead because of that situation?

[Raymond Sullivan]

I don't have that number, unfortunately.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Gordon, thank you for being here.

The scope of the housing situation for indigenous Canadians is more dire than it is for the general population. Is that fair?

[John Gordon]

That's correct.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

What's the biggest gap and what's the biggest cause of that in your estimation?

[John Gordon]

I think there are a number of causes. It would be everything from outright racism to employment opportunities, education and training. Just participation in the economy and in society in general, I think, are some challenges that indigenous communities face, or indigenous populations face, especially in urban settings.

I think a number of non-indigenous people usually purchase their first house or have an opportunity of a transfer of wealth from one generation to another. Unfortunately, we don't have an intergenerational transfer of wealth. We have normally an intergenerational transfer of trauma in the past. We're looking to change that and, hopefully, in future years we can achieve that intergenerational wealth being transferred.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 30 seconds.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I have 30 seconds left. That never happens. I usually talk too much.

I guess my final question would go back to Mr. Sullivan.

Do you think it would make sense for the federal government to be actively encouraging municipalities, with every tool at their disposal, to reduce the costs of housing overall, whether it's social housing or market housing, to reduce the burden on government on what it costs to get a home built?

[Raymond Sullivan]

I think all three orders of government have strong roles to play in reducing the cost of housing and in accelerating non-market housing. Yes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.

Mr. Coteau, go ahead for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Before I start with my questions, I'd like to introduce a motion. This motion was brought to the committee back on April 15, I think, and I let folks know a couple of weeks ago that I would be bringing it forward.

Does everyone have a copy of that motion?

I'd like to move the following motion, Mr. Chair. I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a comprehensive study on advancements in home building technologies, exploring emerging materials, construction methods, energy-efficient systems and digital innovations.

The study shall also examine barriers such as procurement systems, building code issues and the impact of other factors such as architectural services and training; and the committee shall explore policies promoting the adoption of innovative home building technologies and supporting the growth of the construction and the home building industry.

Furthermore, the study will incorporate an examination of how artificial intelligence (AI) can be leveraged within these technologies. This includes AI's role in optimizing design processes, enhancing construction management, improving energy efficiency through smart systems, and the possibility of revolutionizing material composition and building methods.

That the committee hold a minimum of five meetings on this study; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, that the committee request that the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

The motion is in order and has been circulated.

For the witnesses, this is a proper procedure in the committee, and I have to deal with this motion before we go back to the witnesses.

I have Mrs. Gray on the motion and then Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Quite often, the committee will have meetings to discuss the work of the committee, but Mr. Coteau is bringing this forth today, so we're dealing with this right now.

I have mentioned to Mr. Coteau that this is a motion that we can support and a study that we can support. I would like to add an amendment to the motion, which would add part of one sentence. In the last paragraph, where it says, “That the committee hold a minimum of five meetings on the study,” what would follow after that would read, “that the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure appear for no less than two hours in relation to the study and that the study begin immediately following the last witness meeting of the current study.”

That means we would go right into this study of Mr. Coteau's.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

We now have an amendment, so discussion now moves to the amendment.

Mr. Fragiskatos, do you wish to speak to the amendment?