Evidence of meeting #123 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you.
Does contracting out and flipping drive down wages, Mr. Harvey?
Then I'll ask the same question to Ms. Glode.
Economist, Centrale des syndicats du Québec
On that point, the evidence is clear that contract flipping and subcontracting are strategies that are essentially aimed at reducing costs for employers. This cost reduction is not achieved by increasing efficiency, but rather by reducing working conditions for workers.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you so much. I'm happy to hear that it doesn't happen so much in the public service.
Ms. Glode, are you able to share...?
Director, Public Affairs, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor
Yes. Absolutely, contract-flipping definitely drives down wages and benefits, especially for the middle class in particular, in our example.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Ms. Glode, I was involved in a rally on contract-flipping for personal support workers. That's not necessarily an area you are talking about today, but I know that for women, these contract flips really set them back, because they were going back but were unable to increase their wages.
In your industry, is this also something you're seeing at Unifor that is affecting women, racialized groups and minority groups?
Director, Public Affairs, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor
I can't really speak to that specifically in our example. The contract flips we experienced were in predominantly male-dominated industries.
We do represent other workplaces, such as cleaning companies, and the majority of those contract workers are women, so it is something we can be looking at in the future if Vale again flips the contract to somebody else. I feel that it can certainly affect all people equally.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Harvey, do you have any comments about the gender split and how contract flipping might be affecting gender-marginalized groups?
Economist, Centrale des syndicats du Québec
I don't have specific data broken down by gender. However, in the public sector, we see that the jobs for which subcontractors or social or private enterprises are most easily used are low-wage jobs that require a lower level of education. So it is often women, but also immigrants and members of visible minorities who are affected by this subcontracting, with inferior working conditions.
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
Mr. Seeback, I believe you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I feel like I have to clean up a little bit of misinformation or disinformation that we heard from the Liberal member previously. The Conservative leader is on the record as saying that there will be no legislation from a Conservative government with respect to the right to work. It's the same thing with Bill C-377, which was mentioned by a Liberal member. It's official and it's public, so I just wanted to clean up the misinformation surrounding that.
I want to go back to you, Ms. Glode, for a couple of questions.
Did you speak about your concerns to the Liberal government with respect to the decision on the cod fishery? If so, what was their response to your pleas that they reconsider this decision in light of the effect it will have on your unionized workers?
Director, Public Affairs, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor
Unfortunately, the Newfoundland and Labrador Liberal MPs have completely frozen us and our members out since the decision was made. We've been unable to discuss the reasons.
More than that, the minister is responsible for providing a written statement explaining the decision, I believe, within 60 days of the decision being made public. We're hundreds of days out from that now, and we still have no written statement on why that decision was made.
One thing that we heard from Gudie Hutchings was that they had an obligation to NAFO, and that if they reopened a commercial fishery, that's the obligation to NAFO. What they're being disingenuous about is that there was no reason to reopen the commercial fishery to begin with, and there was no precedent. There was not even any support from science to do this. From our perspective, the only ones who benefit from this decision are the corporate fleets.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
To me, it's shocking that you've had such a terrible response from the Liberal government on such an important issue.
You talked about contract flipping and the detrimental effect this is having on unionized members and Unifor in particular. I'm wondering if you or Unifor has raised this issue with the Liberal government. They've been the government for almost 10 years, and I'm sure you've been advocating on this issue for a long time as well. What you described is horrific—that some would have to take a 30% pay cut in order to continue to have their job. The government could have made a change on this.
Have you pursued a change with this Liberal government on contract flipping? What has been their response? Is it similar to the decision you've just talked about?
Director, Public Affairs, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor
Unfortunately, when it comes to contract flipping and labour legislation, it's provincially set. We have been provincially lobbying for changes to contract flipping legislation. It has been raised federally. I think that federal support and coordination and setting best practices will be essential to help the provinces get in line as well.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Okay, thank you very much.
I have one final question.
The Liberal member talked a lot about this alleged policy declaration from the Conservative Party—I think it's about 10 or 12 years old—by members who go to a policy convention that decides something. What's the bigger threat to your union and your workers—is it this obscure section in a policy document or the actual decision that the government has made with respect to the fishery?
Director, Public Affairs, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor
It's definitely a combination of things. Resource management decisions affect our members the most, but a lot of policy and legislation needs to be looked at to support unionization and unionized workers in all industries.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Can you give an example of how your union or other unions are more effective in promoting safety, particularly within your industry, than the corporate structure, which risks taking over things out in Newfoundland?
Director, Public Affairs, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor
Our union has been successful in establishing two provincially coordinated safety associations. We were successful in establishing the Newfoundland and Labrador Fish Harvesting Safety Association. Commercial fish harvesters have the most dangerous job in the world; a number of members lose their lives every single year. Our union, in taking a step in establishing this association, has done a lot to improve fish harvesting safety.
On the processing side, we've been successful in establishing a subcommittee for processing plant workers, because people in different sectors face different obstacles to safety and different issues. There are a lot of unique health and safety challenges for people who work in fish processing, like crab asthma, occupational disease, injuries and ammonia leaks. There are a lot of things that need to be talked about that are hidden by companies in the interest of profits.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I want to thank you so much for coming. Hopefully the government will finally listen to your pleas on these issues.
Liberal
Liberal
Chad Collins Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll start by correcting the record. The policy that my friend and colleague referenced wasn't 12 years old; it was actually from the Conservative playbook in 2023.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
The whole document was updated in 2023 from policies from 20 years ago.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Mr. Seeback, you don't have the floor. Nobody interrupted you when you did.
Mr. Collins, go ahead.