Human Resources Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you for your question.

As you explained so well, freedom of association is a right that can be asserted through a labour dispute. I believe our collective bargaining system is a model for the world.

That said, we were dealing with two fairly similar situations. On one hand, the economy was only beginning to recover after the pandemic. On the other, we had to take action to protect not just the health of Canadians, but also the economy. That also meant we had to protect the jobs of many union members in other sectors, some of whom reached out to me—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

The decision is going to be challenged in court.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, Madame Chabot.

In the minister's backdrop, there's a political advertisement. I would ask if that can stop being displayed. I think it's “make Canada great again” or something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

His staff should be over here. If that's reserved for media, I would ask you respect that it is for the media, please.

Thank you, madame.

I would ask you to respect the fact that it's designated for media, please.

Madame Chabot, continue.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Did you stop the clock, Mr. Chair? I just want to make sure.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

My apologies for interrupting.

Many of these meeting rooms do not have appropriate and full facilities for staff, and we are in a meeting room today. I was quite surprised that we were moved to this meeting room, because we were originally in a different meeting room in West Block, which is larger and where staff have full ability and desks whereas we're in this small room.

There are issues in this room with sound, and they had to turn off one of the monitors earlier. We've had issues in this room, so I was really surprised that, when we have a minister here, we're in this type of room where our staff don't have full ability to function, and there are technical issues ongoing in this room.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gray.

I do not choose the room. That was the House administration, as you all know.

Madame Chabot, continue. You will have your full six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I didn't finish answering.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Minister, I asked you how you were going to promote those fundamental rights.

We heard you loud and clear, especially during the port dispute in Montreal. You talked about economic destruction. As far as we are concerned, as far as workers are concerned, this is serious. Rail and port employers are not negotiating, they are turning up the pressure, they are moving ahead of time to reduce the impact on the supply chain, and they are locking out workers. Then they are waiting for the government to step in.

Instead of supporting the free bargaining process and giving the parties the opportunity to reach an agreement, the government is using a section in the Canada Labour Code to impose measures. Of course, unions are going to legally challenge a decision that, for all intents and purposes, restricts the right to bargain. In the minds of many affected workers, bargaining means nothing anymore. You know full well that services that advance the country's economic interests are not considered essential services. Only services that, if disrupted, would jeopardize public health or safety are considered essential services.

There will be a meeting, but if this is indicative of what you will do in the future, it is worrisome. A dispute is happening right now, and we hope you will do everything you can to protect labour rights.

How do you see labour relations going forward, keeping in mind those fundamental rights?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I stand by the Canada Labour Code. Although I do hear what you're—

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

We still do see that political advertising in the background. I'd just kindly ask the staff member to please adhere to those rules and find another place to sit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

I would just remind those in the room that with in camera angles, the rules of the House of Commons do still follow here, so I would ask you to respect them. You know what they are.

Mr. Minister, continue.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

We may not agree on the issue, but I will stick to the Canada Labour Code. Section 107, which the Parliament of Canada passed, exists to maintain industrial peace.

I want to point out two things, Ms. Chabot.

First, how can we not listen to manufacturers, small and medium-sized businesses, and even Quebec unions that are speaking out to say that their workers are two days away from mass layoffs?

Second, how can we not listen to municipalities that are saying they are worried about the health of their citizens because of a potential chlorine shortage?

In the background of all that, the economy is being impacted. The economic impact of the port shutdowns in eastern and western Canada is estimated at $1.2 billion in total.

Ms. Chabot, I think any labour minister who basically is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister and Ms. Chabot.

Thank you, Madam Chabot.

Madam Zarrillo, go ahead for six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to have the minister here today. I have some questions for the minister on corporate greed and how it's affecting Canadians and seniors.

I'll just start by prefacing my remarks that it may not seem that corporate greed falls into the labour and seniors portfolio, but it certainly does. I think about the ILWU workers of Local 514, who have been talking about Dubai Ports World and the fact that in Australia, it hasn't been paying its taxes. The port workers here are asking if the same thing is happening in Canada. They know that DP World, or Dubai Ports World, owns a majority of the ports in western Canada and that it's been reported that Ports World has been dodging taxes in Australia. The port workers certainly want to know if it's dodging taxes here. There's no transparency on that in Canada.

I'm interested to know what the minister thinks about the lack of transparency in relation to corporate greed and how it affects labour in Canada.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Obviously, for privacy and other reasons, I am not privy to the tax information of individuals or corporations, but I do expect that Canadian laws and tax laws are respected at all times.

I can say more generally, with respect to the west coast ports, that we had a major work stoppage in the summer of 2023.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm sorry. I have very limited time and want to go to the theme of corporate responsibility and ethics as they relate to Revera.

Revera is...owned by the Public Sector Pension Investment Board...a Canadian Crown corporation and one of Canada's largest public sector pension funds. Excessive and preventable COVID-19 deaths [happened] at Revera's Canadian facilities.

I want to say, Minister, that this is related to corporate culture, greed and the move away from caring for people and to trying to make money.

I'm looking at two reports here.

One is called “Revera Living, Making a Killing”. It was done by the Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability and Research. It says, “Revera, a private corporation”, is operating in the U.K. and has shown “a pattern of aggressive corporate tax avoidance” and a lack of ethical corporate conduct in Canada.

I have another report here that was also done by the Centre for International Corporate Tax Accountability. CUPE raised this one about the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board's financial and ethical failures as they invest in long-term care. This was in France, where millions of dollars were lost and care for seniors was absolutely devastating.

This is important, because it's housing and protection for seniors. We have two of Canada's pension plans putting profit before people. I'm interested in what you think about this, because CUPE themselves made three recommendations to the government: Federal governments should prohibit pension funds, including CPPIB, from investing in long-term care; private long-term care facilities should be returned to the public sector; and the federal government should publicly review the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board Act's requirements regarding the board's risk management. I would also say that the federal government needs to review PSPIB regarding compliance with their own ethical standards.

What do you think about these investment boards and the way they're operating—putting profits ahead of seniors?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you for that question, Ms. Zarrillo.

I would start by saying that long-term care providers across the country provide invaluable services to seniors and people with disabilities. I think Canadians would join with you in saying that they did not and will not accept the conditions on display across that sector during the height of the COVID pandemic. People in long-term care deserve safe, quality care. We're going to continue to work with provinces, territories and the sector to ensure Canadians receive the highest quality of care.

I am aware of the allegations you made. These facilities are subject to licensing, inspection and, indeed, the laws of the provinces where they operate. They do not operate within federal jurisdiction.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I'm sorry. I don't have a lot of time.

I want to point out that what I'm talking about here is a culture in our investment boards—in the government's wholly owned subsidiaries. These are the government's wholly owned Crown corporations, where there is a culture of putting profits before people. It's affecting seniors and their lives not just in Canada but also in Europe. In the United Kingdom and Europe, they have decided they're going to look after their profits ahead of people

I want to know what you think about that corporate culture. What we have here is a corporate culture problem, Minister, that is killing people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Give a short answer.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I think what is required are robust standards, licensing requirements and, indeed, laws in those jurisdictions to make sure our seniors are protected and well looked after, and that they can count, on a day-to-day basis, on the kind of care they're getting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Zarrillo.