Human Resources Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Julie Brassard]

Our seasonal workers obviously don't get 22 weeks of work. In most cases, they get 15. The divisor used to calculate their best weeks benefit rate includes all their weeks. If they worked for 15 weeks, all their earnings are added up and the total is divided by 22. Then it is multiplied by 55%. As a result, a lot of people receive EI benefits of $150 or $200 a week. I don't know how people live on so little money.

The 22‑week criterion causes people a lot of trouble. Very few people who turn to our organization for help accumulate 22 weeks of work.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 30 seconds.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Could basing it on the 12 best weeks worked be a solution?

[Julie Brassard]

If the 12 best weeks worked were taken into account, the majority would have the number of weeks needed to make the calculation fairer. The unemployment rate would be more realistic for calculation purposes and would better reflect the best weeks worked during the summer. If we include in the calculation the weeks at the start and end of the tourist season, when people work part time, the average income drops. However, if we take into account the 10 or 15 best weeks worked, the calculation will at least include the weeks when people worked full time and earned the best incomes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Witness Brassard, I have to say that your testimony has been incredibly informative today. I want to thank you so much for that.

I'm going to be asking you specifically about formulas, how women are disproportionately affected and two of the external factors you raised—aging population and climate change.

First, have you ever been part of or been invited to participate in a government round table on employment insurance?

[Julie Brassard]

No, I have never been invited to those kinds of round tables.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I certainly wish you had been, because you have very important information to share.

I'm going to start my time by reiterating, to let the the analysts of the report know, that economists have always agreed that some unemployment is necessary to avoid inflation and allow workers to move between jobs, pursue education or even improve their skills.

We know that that number has been 5% for decades and decades. It's been widely accepted by economists that any unemployment rate lower than 5% is considered full employment. In the U.S., many economists consider a 6% unemployment rate to be full employment.

I was really worried and concerned when I heard you mention that it's 4.7% in your region right now and that the government has cruelly and callously decided to use this unemployment rate as a factor in their formulas of who will get payment.

I wonder if you wouldn't mind clarifying if there is a minimum for the employment rate that the formula puts in place. If unemployment was at 3%, would the government still use 3% in their formula for EI, or is there a minimum at which they say that, once it gets to this number, they're not going to use it as a factor? Would they say the lowest factor they could ever use is 5% or 6%? I'm hoping that makes sense.

I just want to find out about the formulas and what chaos using the unemployment rate might be creating.

[Julie Brassard]

The unemployment rate in Charlevoix is currently 5.4%. The unemployment rate has to be at least 6.1% for the criteria to change in terms of the number of hours of work people have to have and the number of weeks of benefits they get. When the unemployment rate is below 6%, as it has been for the past two years here, the criteria don't change. Whether it is 6%, 5%, 4% or 3%, even if the unemployment rate continues to drop, the same basic criteria apply. You have to accumulate at least 700 hours of work to be entitled to 14 weeks of benefits. That's the minimum.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That seems like a big miss considering, as you mentioned, that there is an aging population that we've been forecasting for decades. Statistics Canada has turned their pyramid into a pineapple just because of the aging population.

I wonder if you could share with this group what the impacts of the aging population are on the seasonal workers industry. How are the demographics in the seasonal workers industry changing to make up for the aging population, which deserves to retire with dignity?

[Julie Brassard]

Obviously, the biggest problem is the labour shortage. Currently, tourism businesses, especially the larger ones, have to recruit workers from outside Canada to be part of their work teams. Workers from here are replaced with people from other countries. However, their situation is no better, since the same effects also apply to them. They receive EI benefits, but the unemployment rate that is taken into account in the calculation of benefits for seasonal workers also makes them come up short, since they hold the same type of job. That's what's happening.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm likely to only get in one more question this round. I wonder if you could expand more on how these EI formulas and the way EI is currently running for seasonal workers are disproportionately affecting women. We know that EI wasn't really created when women were considered to be in the workforce.

[Julie Brassard]

Women are more affected because they have lower-paying jobs.

The employment situation is easier for men, since a lot of them are in construction, where there's a set of rules that already make them better paid. There's a lot more work available for them.

As for women, they most often work as maids or in kitchens. Those jobs pay less, and that's why women are more affected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

We have Mrs. Gray for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I didn't want to interrupt my colleague at the outset and raise a point of order, but I want to mention that, once again, during the first line of questioning on the Conservative side—and even now—the camera wasn't on us. I just want to point out that this seems to be a trend. In particular during the first question, my colleague spoke for a good 20 seconds before the camera went to her. Maybe you can bring up to the House administration that one of four seats will always be the first question, so it shouldn't be a surprise who goes up first.

To the witness, thank you very much for your testimony today. You covered a variety of topics.

You brought up food banks in your opening statement. Are you finding food bank usage up in your region?

[Julie Brassard]

Food banks are useful, even indispensable. If we didn't have food banks, a lot of people would struggle to feed themselves.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

We're seeing that right across the country. We know that many people are facing a cost of living crisis and that many small businesses are not at prepandemic sales yet. Their costs keep increasing with increasing taxes such as the carbon tax. Many small businesses hire seasonal workers, but if people don't have disposable income to spend at businesses and if small business sales are not increasing, that fewer jobs are available and less part-time and seasonal work as well.

I'm wondering if this is something you're hearing in your region and whether you can speak to that.

[Julie Brassard]

Concerning small businesses, as they are unable to find seasonal workers to fill the labour shortage during peak season, the employees in place are the ones who pay the price and have to do more work and work more hours. As a result, these employees are much more stressed.

The labour shortage during the summer is considerable.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

We know that small business owners work very hard, and it's a 24-7 job. We need to recognize that.

You briefly referenced in your opening statement the forestry industry. I'm from British Columbia, and I know that you're from Quebec. In British Columbia, we have seen a lot of job losses in the forestry industry. I'm wondering if you have seen something similar in your region.

[Julie Brassard]

Obviously, we are losing workers, since they are retiring. A number of seasonal workers we knew well came to see us every year to apply for employment insurance, but we no longer see them. They worked as brush cutters. It's an extremely physically difficult job. When those workers get to around the age of 70, they have no choice but to retire.

We help a lot of workers between the ages of 70 and 75. Just yesterday, a 75-year-old woman called us because she needed help applying for employment insurance. It's wonderful that people can work that long. However, working in the forest is much more physical and difficult. Given the seasons and climate change, it's not always easy. Sometimes the work starts later or has to be stopped because of the rain in cases where it's impossible to work when it rains. Things like that disrupt the seasons.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

The government talks quite a bit about transitioning and shutting down a lot of resource-sector jobs yet can't really explain what people would transition to.

Do you find, in your region, that there are jobs for people to transition to—that have the same pay and benefits—if the job they have has to shut down for some reason?

[Julie Brassard]

Those people will obviously have to move on to other seasonal jobs, which are still seasonal jobs. They will still have to accumulate the necessary number of hours to qualify for employment insurance benefits, and they will have to receive the benefits for enough weeks to survive until the next season.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

Mr. Long, you have five minutes.