Human Resources Committee on March 24th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Committee members, I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 14 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today’s meeting is again taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25. Members may attend in Zoom or in person. If you are attending by Zoom, use the Zoom application and the icons available. Choose the language of your choice.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, I would anticipate that each of the members would follow proper health protocols. As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting. I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If the interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

While I'm referencing the interpretation services, I want to remind you that at a liaison committee meeting yesterday, we had a meeting with translation services. We could not conduct these meetings without the interpreters who translate for us. For those appearing virtually, it's very important that you have the proper headsets. The issue becomes not hearing you; it's the background noise that makes it difficult for the interpreters to do their job. As well, speak slowly and loudly. Again, I want to thank the translators for the valuable role they play.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Later today, the minister will be appearing. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2021, the committee will proceed to a briefing on the ministerial mandate letters. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) and the motion adopted on Thursday, March 3, the committee will commence consideration of the main estimates for 2022-23.

Department officials will be appearing. They are Lori MacDonald, senior associate deputy minister, employment and social development and chief operating officer for Service Canada; Karen Robertson, chief financial officer and senior assistant deputy minister; Cliff Groen, senior assistant deputy minister, benefits and integrated services branch, Service Canada; Mary Crescenzi, assistant deputy minister, integrity services branch, Service Canada; Catherine Demers, associate assistant deputy minister, skills and employment branch; Andrew Brown, senior assistant deputy minister, skills and employment branch; Atiq Rahman, assistant deputy minister, learning branch; Nisa Tummon, assistant deputy minister, program operations branch; and Krista Wilcox, director general, officer for disability issues.

It's my understanding that we will go directly to a questioning round. I had a thumbs-up from Ms. MacDonald. No one will be making a statement, which is good, because the members like to maximize the time they have for questioning.

With that, thank you, witnesses, for appearing. We will begin the first six-minute round beginning with Madame Kusie for the opposition.

Madame Kusie, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses who are here today from the department. In the minister's absence, it's very good of you to be here. I'm sure she's very busy, as the new NDP-Liberal coalition will have a significant effect on her department and on the administration of her department.

I'm going to level with you. The questions I'm going to ask you today aren't going to be easy. I'm very sorry you were left in this position, but Canadians need these important answers from this new NDP-Liberal government. We are relying on you to provide them for us today.

My first one, Mr. Chair, is directed to Ms. MacDonald.

How much, Ms. MacDonald, will the new dental care program cost?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, I have a point of order.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

We've heard a lot on it in the media. I know that Canadians certainly are very excited about the prospect, but this is complex and with a very high price tag.

We need to know, Ms. MacDonald, how much this new dental care program will cost, please.

[Lori MacDonald, Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

I'd like to make two points. The first is that I understand Minister Qualtrough will be joining us for the second hour. Secondly, I don't have that information here today.

Obviously this is not something that falls under our department, but I'm sure that through future appearances or through tabling of information, we can provide that at a later date.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That's completely understandable, Ms. MacDonald. The accord is only three days old and you will certainly need some time to prepare.

Would you happen to know how much the first phase is for the 12-year-olds, who will be insured up to 2022? Do you have an estimate for that portion of the dental care? We are already three months into 2022, so I'm certain you must have been provided with some information before these two parties entered into this agreement.

How much will that first phase cost, please?

[Lori MacDonald]

As I indicated previously, this is not an initiative that falls under the department of ESDC. Given that this is a recent announcement, that information is not available to us. However, I believe that a future appearance, or through tabling information at the committee, when that is available, they would be happy to provide it to you.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, Ms. MacDonald. Thank you very much for that information.

My next question is on another initiative of the NDP-Liberal coalition which is very similar.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I believe that a point of order has been raised.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Mr. Chair, I stopped my time at 2:49. Thank you.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, the member knows full well that this isn't an NDP-Liberal government. An agreement that was reached has nothing to do with an NDP-Liberal coalition government that the member has asserted and that we've heard about continually now over the last couple of days.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, that is factually incorrect. That is factually incorrect, and the member knows that.

Chair, I'd ask that—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

This is not a point of order, Chair.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I would ask that this not continue. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Long and Mr. Liepert.

I agree that this is debate.

Please continue, Madame Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll continue then to my next important question for Canadians.

Ms. MacDonald, another initiative that we saw in this NDP-Liberal coalition agreement is the implementation of pharmacare by the end of 2023. Now, the PBO previously priced this out at $87 billion.

Ms. MacDonald, would you say that this number is still accurate, or should we be considering another number and should the budget be considering another number, given this most recent development?

[Lori MacDonald]

As I indicated previously, Mr. Chair, these issues don't fall under the mandate of ESDC. Those questions would have to be put forward to the Department of Health or other departments.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I've stopped the clock at 3:49, Chair.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

It seems to me that my colleague's questions do not relate to the subject under consideration today, which is the main estimates.

It's not in the mandate letter of the minister.

My question would be to ask if we could keep our questions to what's on the table, not what's not on the table today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Ferrada.

Madam Kusie, I would simply ask you to focus your comments on the matter before the committee.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That's fair. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This agreement is a shock and is something new for all of us. I think we're all adjusting here.

I would like to remind the department that the end of 2023 is a mere 21 months away. I would really suggest that they begin their planning for this implementation, because there truly is not a lot of time.

Another initiative relative to this committee from the NDP-Liberal coalition agreement has to do with housing. I am hoping, Ms. MacDonald, that the ESDC has costed the housing initiatives as outlined in the NDP-Liberal coalition agreement.

[Lori MacDonald]

That question may be better presented to infrastructure as our housing CMHC initiatives have been transferred to that department. I don't have that information with me today.

I'll ask my colleague, Karen Robertson, if there's anything that we can add to that.