Evidence of meeting #141 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cmhc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Namiesniowski.
Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.
Ms. Chabot, the floor is yours for six minutes.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Right.
Mr. Chair, I would first like to thank you for your work as chair of this committee. It is very helpful.
I do agree somewhat with what was said about tone and the way some things are being said this morning. We are here as a parliamentary committee where a minister has joined us so we can ask her important questions.
I would also let the Minister know that if, in future, she wants to receive the questions in advance, we will provide them to her. Again, the tone used in answers can sometimes be questionable. In any event, I hope we manage to get the tone right.
We actually do represent groups, we represent people. Everything is not fine in this world. If it were perfect, we would not be sitting here around this table.
The Accessible Canada Act is five years old. There are provisions that need to be strengthened and corrected.
If no one had any doubts about the Canada disability benefit and everyone had applauded it, we would not be here questioning you, Minister. I am sorry to tell you, however, that this is not the case.
I imagine the path is not perfect and you will be able to give us answers to our questions concretely and objectively.
I am going to refer to the last question I asked you.
Most of us were around the table during the study of Bill C‑22 up to when it was passed. The purpose of that bill is to create the Canada disability benefit. Your predecessor was proud of that bill, and rightly so.
However, we also knew that Quebec and the other provinces do not all have the same supports for persons with disabilities. Those supports are absolutely necessary, because what the federal government is doing is supplementing what is being done in the provinces.
We also had eligibility criteria, so as to lower the poverty line. In any event, I can say that we worked hard here.
Minister, I asked you what discussions have been held with the Government of Quebec. You looked at me and said that the Government of Quebec had not guaranteed that it would not claw back benefits.
I am going to ask you a clear question. If I go and see Quebec's ministerial representatives myself, are they going to give me the same answer?
Liberal
Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON
You can decide that on your own when you have that. I mean, I will tell you the conversation that I had with them at every chance. I was very clear about the fact, as I have been with every single province and territory, that there should be no clawbacks when it comes to the Canada disability benefit—and that's not just me saying that. It's what the disability community in Quebec and around the country is saying. I think that's a really important parameter in making sure that this is a benefit that is supporting some of the most vulnerable in our country.
I want to just take a moment to answer one of your previous questions around regulations, and I—
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Exactly what discussions have you had regarding implementation of this measure? This benefit will come online in July 2025, unless it is delayed, as well.
What discussions are you having about this measure? You can't implement it without the agreement of Quebec, when it comes to the terms and conditions.
What are those discussions? Are you having informal talks, or are there concrete discussions?
I will give you an example.
I spoke to you about Quebec's basic income program, which allows persons with disabilities who have jobs to earn $14,000 without losing their benefits.
I have looked at your regulations about the Canada disability benefit, which have still not been made. In your own regulations, you say that benefits could be clawed back after a person earned $10,000.
That in itself raises questions. If we read the regulations, which have not yet been tabled under the act, you are the one who will be clawing back benefits, based on a certain threshold.
You will undoubtedly be having more meetings with the Government of Quebec. What are you looking for, in concrete terms, in your discussions with the Government of Quebec, and what answers have you been given?
Liberal
Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON
I can tell you, the conversations don't start and end with me. Our departments are very much.... There's a table that actually meets. Tina can talk more about the bureaucratic level. At the officials level, they've been engaging on these conversations.
On one of the questions you asked about regulations, I will tell you that a usual regulation takes about 24 months. Any other regulation takes about 24 months. The fact is that we're moving forward diligently and quickly, as well as working alongside the community because we really have to make sure that the voices of community are part of the discussions when it comes to the regulations we put forward for the Canada disability benefit. We're actually moving in a significantly faster way because we know it's so important to get this benefit out to Canadians who need it. This is the first benefit, as you know, of its kind. It's a federal benefit that is going to support some of the most vulnerable in this country.
Tina, do you want to talk about the discussions with the Quebec officials, to answer the question?
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Minister.
You said it takes 24 months to put regulations in place, but the act says 12 months after royal assent.
Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development
Mr. Chair, I can provide a clarification.
I think the Minister said that it usually takes about 24 months to put regulations in place.
In this case, we are actually moving very expeditiously. The initial Canada Gazette regulations were deposited following the budget earlier this year. We expect to have final regulations by the spring, which would enable us to pay the benefit in July of next year.
Really, it's quite a very fast time frame relative to what you would typically see in any regulation-making process.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Chabot.
Now it's Ms. Zarrillo for six minutes.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There were reports out last week that women with disabilities in abusive relationships are sitting ducks. They have the choice to either stay in an abusive relationship or...a large percentage of them end up homeless. We know this is a factor of clawbacks. This is a factor of women who are eligible and entitled to disability payments and income supports having those clawed back because, potentially, their partner's income is too high.
It is very important, in regard to marriage equity, to autonomy and to the safety of women with disabilities, that their income supports are not clawed back. As we think about the Canada disability benefit, I'm wondering what the minister is going to do to protect women in this area.
I'll also ask the minister if she has looked at my bill—Bill C-422—which talks about no clawbacks and independent income supports rather than household eligibility.
Liberal
Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON
Thank you for that really important question, Ms. Zarrillo.
I will look at your bill when it's tabled in the House and we'll have a robust conversation. As I mentioned, I'm always happy to work with you and see what more we can do to support.
You're absolutely right in terms of looking at disability. When you add in the intersectionalities of women with disabilities, they're absolutely some of the individuals who live in deep poverty. We need to make sure we're doing everything possible to make sure they are supported.
Gender-based violence—
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
I'm sorry to cut you off, but I think I only have two and a half minutes.
Can I get an answer from, potentially, some of your staff there? What is the choice right now in the regulations for the Canada disability benefit around household versus individual incomes?
Could I please get an answer on that?
Liberal
Liberal
Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON
Thank you. I will turn to Elisha to provide you with that answer.
Thanks, Ms. Zarrillo.
Elisha Ram Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development, Department of Employment and Social Development
Thank you.
Good morning, and thank you for the question.
In the draft regulations that were published in Canada Gazette, part I, the Canada disability benefit is income tested and it will be income tested on the basis of household income.
To the member's question, we are aware of the concerns around the potential vulnerability that this creates. It's something that we're quite conscious and concerned about. However, given that the benefit is intended to support those who are most in need, it's important to consider the overall income the individual has access to. This is relatively consistent with how other income-tested benefits in the federal government and elsewhere are typically structured.
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you so much, witness Ram.
I'm going back to the minister.
Minister, “nothing without us” means that this needs to be income tested on individuals. These benefits are because we have an ableist society, where persons with disabilities do not have the same access. I totally understand what witness Ram is saying. This is the traditional, long-standing method. We need a modernized approach to income supports for persons with disabilities not just in this area but also for the disability tax credit. It's very medicalized right now. I ask that you look at opportunities to modernize. Take a look at my bill, Bill C-422. It has already been tabled. It's been on the table for a week. This is what people are asking for. This is what it looks like to champion rights for persons with disabilities.
I'm going back to my initial question around the $250 workers' rebate.
Could the minister answer what specific steps she took to fight for persons with disabilities with respect to the $250? Then, go back to whether there is a mechanism in the Accessible Canada Act for continuous improvement of things that might not be working or for additions that need to be added.
Thank you.
Liberal
Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON
Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.
I'll answer your last question first.
On the Accessible Canada Act road map, the online consultations for what that should look like are open right now. I'm asking the member and others to please look into the feedback from the disability community. You're hearing different things. I think they can add to that.
I look forward to working with you on your private member's bill. That's also very important. As you know, it's been extremely difficult this entire session to get anything done in the House of Commons. It's unfortunate. I wish the NDP wouldn't play along with the Conservatives, so that we can have real debates around important legislation that has been held back. This is about supporting some of the most vulnerable, as you suggested. We're going to continue to ensure that some of the most vulnerable are supported.
When it comes to the income test, I think the Canada disability benefit is consistent with every other federal benefit the Government of Canada has put forward. There is always, obviously, room to improve, and we're going to continue to look at different ways to ensure some of the most vulnerable.... When you look at intersectionality...as you mentioned, it's very important that we work alongside the community to ensure we support them in that venue.
I look forward to debating your bill in the House—
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Yes.
Very quickly, Minister, many witnesses have come to this committee. Women were not considered part of the workforce when EI was formed. Women were not considered as individuals and couldn't even vote until—
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
We need a modernization of these benefits, Minister. I'm asking you to do it on the CDB.
Thanks.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.
We'll now go to Mr. Stewart for five minutes.