Human Resources Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray.

Your time is exhausted.

We'll now go to Mr. Van Bynen for six minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate your being here to bring us up to date on your progress.

The affordable housing fund works with organizations across Canada to create new affordable housing and to repair and renovate existing affordable supply. Can you identify some of the target demographics—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

There is a point of order from Madame Chabot.

Madame Chabot, go ahead.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

The interpreter tells us that our colleague Mr. Van Bynen is not speaking directly into his mic and it is difficult to interpret what he is saying.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I think I had the wrong mic, Mr. Chair. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Before you begin again, I would ask members, when they're close to somebody who is actively participating and the mic is open, to please keep quiet. It does cause issues for the translators, who are hearing multiple voices. I would ask members to respect that side.

Mr. Van Bynen, we'll go back to you. I apologize.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Volk, the affordable housing fund works with organizations across Canada to create new affordable housing and to repair and renovate existing affordable supply. Can you identify some of the target demographics and communities that this fund seeks to benefit?

[Coleen Volk]

I'll ask your permission, Mr. Chair, to pass the question to my colleague, Nadine, who was here when the program was developed.

[Nadine Leblanc]

Thank you for the question.

The affordable housing fund mandates that we serve 11 vulnerable population priority groups, as stated in the national housing strategy. Examples of the vulnerable population groups that have been identified are women and children, indigenous populations and communities, and the Black community. We also have immigrants, as well as youth and seniors. Those are examples of the 11 priority groups that have been identified under the national housing strategy. Therefore, funding that is going through the affordable housing fund is going to these vulnerable population groups.

It is a national program; therefore, in terms of equity, we are serving all communities across Canada, certainly in urban, rural and northern areas. As a matter of fact, we are funding 96 projects in the territories overall in the national housing strategy, and a lot of the funding is coming from the affordable housing fund.

We can go over some of the targets as well, but a big component of the affordable housing fund is also regarding repairs. We talked about the need to preserve social and affordable housing. One of the objectives of the affordable housing fund is repairs. We have repaired over 166,000 units to date, on a target of 170,000.

Those are examples of goals and social outcomes of that so far.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I have an interest in the apartment construction fund. As a result of that program, about three or four towers are going up in my community alone.

I understand that it's intended to make it easier for builders to build and to get projects done more quickly. Can you provide an overview of the changes and their expected impacts?

[Nadine Leblanc]

CMHC reviews its programs on an ongoing basis. We are required, through Treasury Board submissions, to evaluate programs and make sure that they continue to evolve in meeting the market needs. The apartment construction loan program is probably the program that takes on a lot more risk than any other type of program at CMHC or conventionally. To date, it has built over 53,000 units on a target of 131,000 units. It is scheduled to continue until 2032.

Some of the reforms we've announced just recently include the extension of term. We went from 10 years to 20 years. We've also introduced the concept of “frequent builder” to really accelerate the access to funding for builders who have been through our programs before.

We are promoting a portfolio approach. We have done some in the past. You've probably seen the Sen̓ákw program in Vancouver. There are more in Toronto that we've done. These are bundles of programs coming together.

We've also introduced some new carve-outs in ACLP to test innovative techniques in construction, like modular and panelization. There are also some carve-outs around conversion. I know there are some really nice projects going on in Calgary as a result.

Those are just examples of ACLP.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

I have just one last question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The time is up.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

As you know, the government has introduced a GST holiday for rental housing construction.

Can you give us an estimate of how many housing units might be built as a result of this?

[Nadine Leblanc]

We will get back to you about that. Revenue Canada is responsible for the program.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

I also referred to CMHC's estimate that there will be a shortfall of 3.5 million units by 2030.

The Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer has also estimated housing needs as they relate to immigration targets.

Has CMHC done the same kind of study? What is your estimate of the 3.5 million-unit shortfall in the housing supply by 2030 based on? We are still talking about affordable housing. That is really an enormous number.

Have you done any new estimates? Are you taking immigration levels into account?

[Coleen Volk]

I don't have a new estimate of that number. I know that our economics people are working on it. Our housing economics and insights group is studying that.

There are many factors at play right at the moment. In addition to the issues that are already at play in Canada, we've had some events to the south that may also increase the housing need in Canada. Those kinds of things are being incorporated in our models right now.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

In 2023, the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities released a major report on the national housing strategy.

The report contained numerous recommendations directed to CMHC. One of them was this: "That the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation report back to the committee on how the specific targets established for the National Housing Strategy will fail to meet the government’s overall vision... ."

What follow‑up have you done regarding the recommendations made to you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot. You can follow up on that in another round of questioning.

Next, we have Ms. Zarrillo, for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

I want to let you know, Mrs. Volk, that this committee is empowered to study and report on the mandate, management and operations of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, so you may get questions, but it's because we feel a responsibility to make sure that CMHC is being governed appropriately.

I want to go back to my introduction about the idea of changing culture. I was really looking forward to meeting you today. I was really looking forward to a culture change at CMHC. The past CEO came to this committee and let us know that the expertise on getting affordable housing built had really bottomed out at CMHC. I was hoping that your new leadership would reinvest in that need. I did hear that there has been a reallocation of policy staff out of your office, so I wonder if you could highlight if that is true.

I also wanted to go back to some testimony we had from a very well-known housing advocate, Steve Pomeroy, who said:

Certainly federal spending powers are a very important tool, but we have now got to the point of the national housing strategy where less than 10% of all the funding is going through the provincial mechanisms where the expertise largely was.

I recently met with the housing minister for B.C., who also said that this mechanism of 90% going through the federal government is not working. The provincial governments are ready to get acting, but this money is being withheld from them.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit about Steve Pomeroy's recommendation, which is rebalancing and ramping up some of the programs that are funded under the bilateral agreements and allocating that to the provinces so they can get it going. They're the ones with the expertise.

[Coleen Volk]

Would you like me to address your first question first, about the policy transfer?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Sure.

[Coleen Volk]

On the policy transfer, we did transfer a number of individuals and resources to the newly formed HICC, Housing, Infrastructure and Communities Canada. Those individuals work on the development of policy. They consider policy alternatives, provide policy options to government and sit at the intergovernmental tables. They work with other departments in providing formal advice to the minister and to other government colleagues.

We did transfer a number of staff to the department. We did not transfer our delivery staff, so we still have a large number of people who are working on the ground with clients and serving clients every day. We still have a tremendous amount of knowledge, and we are still the centre of expertise for the delivery of those programs. We have a tremendous amount of knowledge of what's actually happening on the ground, what works and what doesn't work.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Maybe I could get a written answer to my other question.