Human Resources Committee on Dec. 14th, 2021

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number two of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the room.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

To ensure an orderly meeting I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak to the chair or alert the chair, or you can simply raise your hand in the room.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, you mike should be on mute. A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

As you are aware, we are studying Bill C-3, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Canada Labour Code. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, December 9, 2021, the committee will commence its consideration of Bill C-3, an act to Amend the Criminal Code and the Canada Labour Code.

We will wait until we have the minister, who is doing a sound check.

I will suspend momentarily while we await the arrival of the minister, virtually.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I'll call the meeting back to order. We had momentarily suspended, so the committee is now in session.

I would like to welcome our witnesses, beginning with the Minister of Labour, the Hon. Seamus O'Regan, as well as staff from the Department of Employment and Social Development and the Department of Justice. We will go through those as they appear.

Minister, we'll begin with five minutes of opening remarks by you, followed by a question and answer session. This was scheduled from 11 o'clock to 12 o'clock, Minister, so the committee will decide how it wants to proceed when we get to 12 o'clock.

Thank you.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the members of the committee.

I want to acknowledge that I am joining you from the island of Newfoundland, which is the traditional territory of the Beothuk and Mi’kmaq peoples.

I want to thank you for inviting me to discuss this bill, and for your patience through all the technical difficulties that we've had.

It is a sad reality that across Canada some workers do not have access to paid sick leave. In fact, 58% of workers in Canada do not have any paid sick leave at all. This means that many workers cannot afford to stay home due to an illness. This is a significant issue.

For some people, missing paid days due to illness means not being able to make your mortgage or rent payments, or deal with the many other bills that you need to pay to support your family. It is simply an unfair choice to impose on Canadian workers.

Despite the progress that the Government of Canada has made on the labour front, it is clear that the pandemic has exposed the gaps in our social safety systems. The time has come to close the gap on paid sick leave.

Currently, the Canada Labour Code provides employees in federally regulated industries with several unpaid leaves related to personal illness or injury, as well as three days of paid personal leave that could be used to treat an illness or injury. However, if we look at the statistics from 2019, we find that Canadian workers took an average of eight and a half days of leave for illness and issues related to a disability. It has become very clear that three days is not enough.

This legislation would amend the Canada Labour Code to provide 10 days of paid sick leave per year to workers in the federally regulated private sector. This is a change that will make a real difference in the lives of working Canadians. As of today, there are approximately 18,500 employers in federally regulated industries. Together, this represents over 950,000 workers.

The federally regulated sector is comprised of workplaces from a broad range of industries—it includes interprovincial air, rail, road and marine transportation, pipelines, banks, postal and courier services, among others. These are all industries people count on every day.

It's incumbent on us as the federal government to support these workers. The bill before us today not only allows workers in these vital industries to stay home to rest when they are sick, but also prevents the spread of illness in the workplace. Specifically, it would amend part III of the Canada Labour Code.

The first change is to provide that, for each calendar year, employees would accumulate one day of paid leave per completed month of employment, up to a maximum entitlement of 10 days per calendar year.

The second change is to avoid duplicating paid leave provisions related to illness or injury under the Canada Labour Code.

These two changes would impact 600,000 employees—582,700, to be exact—in the federally regulated private sector who don't currently have access to at least 10 days of paid sick leave.

Increased paid sick leave would support employees by protecting them in three ways.

First, paid sick leave would protect workers' incomes. Workers won't have to choose between staying home to get well and getting paid.

Second, it would protect their jobs.

And finally, it would protect workers' health. Additional sick days would allow them to recover at home, which would protect others in the workplace.

In addition, the government would like to see paid sick leave implemented across the country, in all sectors. To do that, we will discuss a plan to legislate sick leave across the country with provinces and territories, respecting their jurisdictions and keeping the unique needs of small business owners top of mind.

Currently, not every province and territory has paid sick leave provisions, and that shouldn't be the case. We have a responsibility to make sure all Canadians have access to paid sick leave. This is essential to Canada's economic recovery. It will protect workers' health now and into the future.

It's time to close the gap that the pandemic exposed in our social safety net.

Mr. Chair and members, as we finish the fight against COVID-19, a vital step towards Canada's economic recovery is to make sure that Canadians have access to paid sick leave.

I want to quote from economist Jim Stanford. In The Globe and Mail, he said:

It would be reckless and short-sighted to return to a preCOVID “normal” that compelled sick workers to show up, regardless of the risk to others.

With this bill, the government is taking action to give workers the support that they need to help keep themselves healthy and keep their workplaces safe. Hard-working Canadians across the country are counting on us to make these necessary and important changes.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now move immediately to the first round of questions.

We'll go to Madam Kusie for six minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister. It's always a pleasure to see you. I recognize the importance of this bill and the urgency in which we must pass it, given your appearances yesterday and today.

I want to cut to the chase and get to the two issues that came out of the Senate, which are being reported in the media today.

The first one is proposed subsection 239(1.2), with the bill currently reading:

An employee earns, at the beginning of each month after completing one month of continuous employment with an employer, one day of medical leave of absence with pay, up to a maximum of 10 days in a calendar year.

What we're hearing is that you, the government, might seek to have those 10 days begin automatically at the start of employment, rather than accrue over time. The rationale for that is, in many cases, that someone might need the 10 days before 10 months of being employed. However, providing all 10 days of paid medical leave up front could impose costs on employers in high turnover industries, such as road transportation, where employees change employers frequently. By accumulating paid leave throughout the year, new and departing employees would receive days of medical leave with pay for the months that they are with a particular employer, thus limiting costs on employers in high turnover industries, for example.

I want to ask you in a very upfront way where the government is in its thinking with this request to go to the immediate bulk entitlement, as opposed to the accrual method. Where are you, Minister?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

First of all, thank you very much for not only your comments today but, during several of my checks when I couldn't help but listen in, Madam Kusie, I appreciated some of the words you said, particularly on my role as natural resources minister. I think many members recognize I took my responsibilities there to heart. One thing I will take with me is the importance of workers to our natural resources sector not only here now but also into the future.

I will cut to the chase. We are open to amendments, yes. We are open to, I think, good, constructive conversations, and certainly I would look at anything in writing that was brought forward.

There were some issues, for instance, on the accumulation of sick days. As we'd said, they would accumulate as presented to you, one per month. Perhaps we could offer a certain number of days as a minimum up front. I think we are willing to look at anything, Madam Kusie, that would encourage people, or at least not cause people to hesitate, to stay home if they feel they may have symptoms.

I can tell you that the present imperative put upon us by omicron is real. Even since I spoke to the Senate yesterday, we have a better, although not complete, understanding of this variant. The importance of our acting upon this is so immediate.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

I will stop you there, please, so I can get to my second question.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

This could not be more timely. Thank you for your constructive comments.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Indeed, omicron is real, but so is the necessity of getting our economy going and getting inflation under control.

I'm going to turn to the second concern that came out of the Senate yesterday, hoping that you will be able to address it, very frankly, more directly, more completely and more specifically.

The other portion of the bill where I understand we could see some movement is in proposed subsection 239(1.6). It reads:

The employer may, in writing and no later than 15 days after the return to work of an employee who has taken medical leave of absence with pay, require the employee to provide a certificate issued by a health care practitioner certifying that the employee was incapable of working for the period of their medical leave of absence with pay.

What we're hearing is that you, the government, again might get rid of this portion entirely. One trend we have certainly heard from many stakeholders we've talked to is that they strongly support leaving this portion in the bill and would in fact have a lot of concerns without a medical certificate. Employers would have no recourse if an employee might be using days when they're not sick.

Before you move on this portion of the bill, I think we need to have a very serious discussion about this, because, in fact, the support of the official opposition might rest on your decision with this. I'm going to ask you again, please, in regard to proposed subsection 239(1.6), where the government is at in terms of requiring a sick note either upon illness or upon return to work.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

First of all, as you said, as currently drafted the employer may require no later than 15 days after the employee's return to work that the employee provide a certificate issued by a health care practitioner certifying that the employee was incapable of working for the period of their absence.

Listen, both of these things being presented here are either-or, either we do it all or we don't do it all. There is room for a compromise that would acknowledge arguments on both sides. That's how this country was built.

I can understand how this could be onerous for workers, particularly in light of the pandemic. There's data that indicates workers are less likely to use the sick leave they are entitled to when a doctor's note is required. An Ipsos poll was done that indicated 82% of Canadians would rather go to work sick than obtain a medical certificate, so that's not in keeping with the spirit of this legislation.

As I've said, I am mindful of potential barriers to access for paid sick leave and potential ways to address them. I'm also very much aware of businesses' concerns about abuse—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That's very inconclusive, but thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madam Kusie, your six minutes have concluded.

Now we go to Mr. Long for six minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister. It's great for you to be here with us today.

Good morning to all of my colleagues around the table.

I'll say just a few words at the start here about what we've all been through, all of us from all parties, over the last couple of years. Obviously we're in unprecedented times. We know, as the minister just said, that omicron is upon us and it's a game-changer with regard to what we're dealing with for the future. I'm very proud of my government. I'm very proud of all MPs across all party lines and how we have collaborated over the last two years. We've delivered programs. I'm proud of what we've done. No one knew in March 2020 what we'd be faced with, and whether it was the CERB, CEBA, the wage subsidy, rent support, business loans or what have you, we were there as a government for Canadians. We were there to support Canadians.

Certainly one thing that was missing—it's bothered me really for over a year now—is that I would have people coming into my constituency office and they were sick. They had to make a decision between going to work sick or staying home and not being able to feed their family, pay their mortgages or what have you. The fact that we're coming forward with Bill C-3 and the fact that it's going to give people who are sick the opportunity to be home, get better and not spread COVID, or what have you, around the workplace is profoundly important.

Minister, thank you, and I apologize for yesterday. I know there were some delays. I know your time is precious.

My first question to you, Minister, is this. From your side and the department's side, can you describe the necessity of paid sick leave and how you've come to where we are right now?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, honourable member for Saint John—Rothesay, for the opportunity.

Let me say that this is not a matter of my valuable time, etc. There is no more important place for me to be than right here with you, right now, and the same was true yesterday. Omicron is in Canada and it is spreading. There have been many times, I'm sure, that you've heard, before this committee and through other committees, about the urgency of what is before you and the need to act quickly. I cannot tell you how urgent this legislation is and the signal it would send to so many workers before Christmas that we have their backs, that it is okay to stay home and that they should not have to make difficult decisions on their rent or mortgage. We need them to stay home, for them to stay well, for their families to stay well, for all of us to stay well.

The urgency of omicron is real, and this will send a signal in a tangible way for us to minimize the impact of this variant.

The second thing I would say—and this is in response to a comment by Madam Kusie—is that we are very well attuned to the costs borne by businesses. It is very easy for politicians to appear before committees like this and say, “But, you know, it is much worse if we don't do this....”

But it is much worse if we don't do this. It is much worse for small businesses, for big businesses, for all businesses—for us—if we don't take measures like this. It is real. We know that. We've been through it. We don't want to go through it again. We don't want to go through a complete lockdown of this economy again.

There are things we can do that we absolutely and essentially need to do. All I want to do is assure honourable members—and I've sat on a committee similar to yours—that I'm not abusing this language or these sentiments in front of you. This is not political rhetoric. This is real. The cost to the economy if we do not take measures like this will be enormous. We know that because we're coming out of it. The urgency of acting on this has never been more vital. Omicron is here.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Minister, thank you for that.

For the record, can you state again the percentage of workers who are not covered by sick leave in Canada?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's 58% of workers. You're talking about an awful lot of people in retail and other industries. We are talking right now about the 6% who are governed federally, under federal jurisdiction. These are some large companies and small companies, 15,000 in total, of all shapes and sizes, many of which have already shown very real leadership in this space.

I would also remind honourable members that the reason 10 days is so essential is that, for the most part, it is two working weeks. How long do we ask people to quarantine for? It's two weeks. That's why the 10 days is so important. It will cover people who we ask to quarantine for two weeks.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thanks for that, Minister.

Minister, what would you say to anyone who says that this bill is being pushed through too quickly?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We've heard that so many times before. I'm sure there are ministers of all parties who have perhaps abused that authority.

I am telling you that I am not pulling that plug or pulling that chute or whatever you want to call it. I am not doing it easily nor am I abusing my authority—political or otherwise. It is imperative that we act quickly. It is absolutely vital that we act quickly.

I implore members of the committee to take me to heart on that.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

Minister, I have a final comment. I'm very happy to hear that you will be entertaining some amendments. I know some of the other parties do have some suggestions. I'm really happy to hear that too.

I thank you very much for your time. We'll see you soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

We'll now go to Madame Chabot for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Minister.

Today, you are reiterating something that you mentioned in the House when the bill was introduced, which is the goal of strengthening the social safety net. That's also part of our objectives.

Giving 10 days of paid sick leave to all workers who are not entitled to it is a positive thing. I see this as one of the significant benefits that all employers should consider, because it helps attract and retain staff.

However, let me tell you that when it comes to the social safety net, we are wide of the mark. When I think of individuals with serious illnesses receiving only 15 weeks of sickness benefits under the employment insurance system, and the fact that barely 40% of workers are eligible, I can see that we have a long way to go.

My question is about the 10-day paid sick leave bank. I feel it's important that it be clearly articulated that this is a right.

I also have a few questions about the implementation of this measure. We need to make sure that after one month of service, workers will be able to use these 10 days of leave immediately, and that they will not be accumulated at the rate of one day per month.

You should also clarify what you mean by “continuous service”. Does it mean that if, during the course of a month, a worker needs to be absent for some other reason, they will not be considered to have provided continuous service?

In my opinion, you should clarify that people could take half-days of leave, while Bill C‑3 provides that the employer could require them to take a full day. To give this bill its full effect, unless it's not necessary, would you be willing to clarify provisions that would impede the accumulation of leave?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Chabot.

During the pandemic, we noticed that many workers didn't have access to paid sick leave.

As you rightly point out, nobody should have to choose between staying home when they're sick or being able to afford rent and groceries.

We are proposing amendments to the Canada Labour Code to provide all federally regulated private sector workers with 10 days of paid sick leave.

Having said that, it is important that what we are asking for, basically, is a floor. There has to be a minimum 10 days offered. To get back to a common misconception, these aren't stackable days [Technical difficulty—Editor] top of days that you may already have through your employer or through your collective agreement. We are looking for a minimum of 10 days, so that everybody has those 10 days whether they are presented through this legislation or whether they are presented through other collective agreements or agreements with the employer.

I will ask my deputy, perhaps, to answer some of your questions more specifically. She is standing by.

Deputy.

[Sandra Hassan, Deputy Minister of Labour, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for the questions, Ms. Chabot.

You alluded to some of the provisions in Bill C‑3, namely the accumulation of leave at a rate of one day per month, the issue of continuous service and the fact that the bill provides that employees could take a half-day, but the employer could also ask them to take a full day. Those provisions are currently in the bill.

Yesterday, our minister showed some openness to considering amendments to the bill. He would be very interested in receiving suggestions for wording related to requests.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

I'll come back to it in the second hour.

Mr. Minister, I have a second question. You did not address the issue of criminal law. You had committed to talking to labour organizations to ensure that the Criminal Code provisions would not interfere with the constitutional rights to protest, picket and assemble.

How could we get that assurance in the bill?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

My deputy could speak to this as well, I'm sure, or Mr. Brown. We were involved with justice officials to assure our stakeholders that this was not the case, ensuring that the right of assembly, the right for peaceful assembly and the ability of people to strike were not an issue. We've been assured of that.

In fact, I can ask her to maybe say a word. Laurie Wright is here from Justice. Maybe she can give you the technical assurances, Madame, that you are looking for.