Human Resources Committee on May 24th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

It's good to see everybody at this meeting. It was a bit uncertain this morning if we would be having a meeting, as there were issues for the majority of our witnesses. Those have been clarified, though.

Welcome to meeting number 26 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and I believe all participants are appearing virtually.

Am I correct, Madam Clerk? At least members are, so we will follow whatever health protocols are required.

I want to advise committee members that you have the option of speaking in the official language of your choice. If we have a loss of interpretation services, please get my attention by signalling me with the “raise hand” icon, and we will suspend the meeting while we correct whatever issues there are.

I would also remind all participants to address their questions through me, the chair. Please identify who you will be questioning.

Today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by this committee on Monday, May 16, the committee will commence its study on the subject matter of part 5, divisions 26, 27, 29 and 32 of Bill C-19, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures. This is a subject matter study, not a clause-by-clause review of these sections.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Annik Casey, director general of employment insurance benefits processing at the benefits and integrated services branch; Rouba Dabboussy, director general of the benefits and integrated services branch; Saajida Deen, director general of employment program policy and design at the skills and employment branch; Zia Proulx, director general of the strategic policy, analysis and workplace information directorate; Anamika Mona Nandy, acting director general of employment insurance at the skills and employment branch; George Rae, acting executive director of employment insurance policy at the skills and employment branch; James Scott Patterson, acting director of the benefits and integrated services branch; and Fariya Syed, director of employment program policy and design at the skills and employment branch.

I'm going to ask at this time which one of the witnesses is going to give an opening statement.

Do we have anybody? Is there no opening statement from any of the witnesses who are appearing?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Danielle Widmer]

There is no opening statement, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I will go directly to the questioning of the witnesses. To begin, I will go to Madame Kusie for six minutes.

Madame Kusie, you have the floor.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Casey, a change in division 26 is the eligibility to qualify for EI. Previously, the requirement was that an individual had to have paid into the program for at least five of the last 10 years. It is being changed to only three of the last 10 years. Why does the department want to make a change to three years from five years?

[Saajida Deen, Director General, Employment Program Policy and Design, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

My name is Saajida Deen. I'm the director general in the skills and employment branch responsible for these changes to the Employment Insurance Act.

As outlined in budget 2022, these changes are being proposed to broaden eligibility for skills and employment training under part II of the EI act. Previously, for an individual to receive intensive training supports under EI part II, they would have had to be either an individual who is in receipt of employment insurance benefits or someone who had received the benefits in the last five years, or they would have had to pay a minimum level of premiums in five of the last 10 years.

This change is being proposed to reach those individuals who are further removed from the labour market and who have made contributions for—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, that's clear now. Thank you.

Do we know what financial impact these changes will have on the EI fund, Ms. Deen?

[Saajida Deen]

These changes will be in effect only once new agreements are negotiated with provinces and territories. In budget 2022, the government signalled its intent to negotiate new agreements. At this time, the existing provisions of the EI act will continue until such time as new agreements are in place.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It sounds like we won't know the financial impacts until the new agreements are in place.

What consultation process took place regarding the changes in division 26? Can you please provide an overview?

[Saajida Deen]

Absolutely. Extensive consultations took place in 2016 and 2017. About 700 labour market stakeholders took part in those consultations across Canada.

These changes are also being proposed due to ongoing consultations with provinces and territories that currently implement 13 sets of.... There are bilateral labour market transfers with each of the provinces and territories. As part of the ongoing implementation of those agreements, which serve about a million Canadians a year, we have heard from labour market stakeholders that there is a need to reach those who are further removed from the labour market.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I'm going to move to division 32 now. Why did the government decide to create a new body—the employment insurance appeal board—to deal with appeals?

[Rouba Dabboussy, Director General, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

In 2012, the former tribunal was dissolved and the SST was created. Following that, in 2017 there was a review of the SST. It was decided that there was a need to improve the tribunal to make the first level of hearings easier to navigate and more responsive to the needs of Canadians, and to eliminate the legalistic approach to those hearings.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Can you provide an overview of the consultation process taken regarding the creation of the new employment insurance appeal board?

[Rouba Dabboussy]

I'll turn that over to my colleague, Scott Patterson.

[James Scott Patterson, Acting Director, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

While I don't have a list here of all the consultations that were done, a number of consultations were done during the third party review and following that. If you would like a list of those, we can provide them.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It would be helpful if you could table that with the committee. Thank you, Mr. Patterson.

Why couldn't appeals be successfully dealt with through the employment insurance appeal board?

I'll go back to Ms. Dabboussy for that response, please.

[Rouba Dabboussy]

The current appeal board has one panel. One big concern we heard through the consultations and the review was the need to have a tripartite model. One would represent the commission, one would represent employers and another would represent employees. That's one of the biggest drives behind the creation of the new board of appeal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 10 seconds.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What kind of new supports does the department intend to provide through these new measures in division 26?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Sorry, the time is out. You'll have to answer that question at another session.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll move to Mr. Long for six minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to my colleagues.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are on my screen here this afternoon. Thanks for what you do for our country.

My questions will go to whoever is the appropriate person. I'm not sure who would answer. First, though, I have a few comments. I'm going to ask some questions on division 27, which is extending the temporary measures for seasonal claimants from October 30, 2022, to October 28, 2023.

We realize that the pandemic has exposed the need for modernized employment insurance. I think we have all seen in our ridings how it exposed weaknesses in the program. We need an EI program that aligns with the realities of today's labour market and is capable of quickly responding to changes in the economy, as we've just seen, obviously, in the pandemic.

To inform long-term development of a plan for the future of EI, budget 2022 reiterated the government's commitment to continuing consultations with Canadians on what needs to be done in the EI program to meet the current and future needs of workers and employees. The temporary nature of the proposed one-year extension to the support measures for workers and seasonal industries provides the flexibility to complete consultations before implementing a permanent approach for this important group of workers.

As a sitting government member, I certainly recognize the seasonal employment industries. I can name many, whether it be tourism, fishing or what have you. It's an important part of Canada's continued prosperity. The temporary measures to support workers in seasonal industries ends in the EI act on October 29, 2022. The proposed amendments would extend the current legislative provisions for one year, until October 28, 2023. This will enable eligible workers in the 13 targeted EI regions with highly seasonal economies, currently covered by the temporary measures—including workers in the seasonal industries whose seasonal claiming pattern was disrupted by the timing of temporary COVID measures—to continue to access up to five additional weeks of EI regular benefits in their off-season.

Again, this is for whoever is the appropriate person to answer. What are the biggest gaps and issues with EI that you discovered due to the pandemic? What lessons have been learned for improving EI specifically, as we are focused on modernization?

Thank you.

[Anamika Mona Nandy, Acting Director General, Employment Insurance, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

In terms of the biggest gaps and in terms of EI modernization, the consultations are ongoing, as you may know. We had phase one of the consultations from August 2021 to February 2022. We are currently in phase two, which will extend from April to July of this year.

In terms of the lessons learned from those consultations and even from the pandemic, as part of the consultations we will get that future evidence from stakeholders. Some of the areas that were notable during the pandemic in terms of gaps were in terms of access to the EI program, eligibility, adequacy of EI benefits, supports for seasonal workers and supports for the self-employed. Hence, those are some of the key topics for the current and ongoing EI consultations.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

I guess the question is this: Why did you not continue with the previous temporary measures introduced in budget 2021?

[Anamika Mona Nandy]

In terms of the previous temporary measures introduced in budget 2021, at the start of the pandemic the government responded rapidly by introducing temporary and emergency income support measures that ensured that people could continue to make ends meet even as the pandemic prevented them from working. Following this, recognizing that many workers were impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic—they lost their jobs or worked reduced hours—a set of temporary measures was introduced through budget 2021 to facilitate and maintain access to EI as the economy recovered.

A number of temporary measures were introduced in budget 2021, including certain common entrance requirements and EI simplification measures. These temporary measures facilitated greater access to a more simplified EI program during the pandemic and subsequent waves of unemployment. However, as Canada's economy continues to recover from COVID-19, the lessons learned from those temporary measures, as well as from the pandemic and ongoing consultations, will inform the long-term plan to modernize the EI program.