Human Resources Committee on June 13th, 2022

[Sarah Silva]

For indigenous communities, our affordability is often defined by outsiders. Oftentimes, it does not meet the income in our community, so it creates a huge housing barrier outside of the reserve.

I know that each first nation's needs are different. It would be great, when developing housing for first nations people, to be able to reach out to them. A lot of them are now working on their own housing strategies. They've done their need and demand, so they understand what the income levels and what the needs are.

Engage with the different first nations and ask them exactly what is affordable based on their community. Develop that into the current programs and the future housing developments as well.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Silva.

What do you think, Ms. Whitzman?

[Carolyn Whitzman]

I will be fairly straightforward and simple.

For decades, the CMHC had a definition of affordability that it stuck to. First it was 20%, then 25% and then 30%. Since the eighties, the definition of affordable housing has been 30% of before-tax income.

I'm part of the housing assessment resource tools project, which is based at UBC. We have done analysis of housing needs for every city, region, province, territory and the country as a whole. The City of Vancouver, for instance, uses this analysis. We're working with 14 different municipalities across Canada to integrate this analysis.

There are three categories. There are very low-income people. That's a lot of the people we've been hearing about today. Their incomes are less than 20% of the median income. Usually they are on ODSP, Ontario Works or whatever the equivalent is in other provinces.

There are low-income people who are generally dependent on minimum wage and earning between $15,000 and $30,000 a year. They can afford maybe $750 a month.

Then there are moderate-income households who are sometimes in housing need, particularly if they're larger families. Depending on the city, you're talking about $1,085 a month in rent. Those are the households that are in housing need and that the national housing strategy is committed to focusing on. That's what human rights obligations say you should be focusing on.

The definition of affordability is not the most complicated problem you're going to be dealing with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. Gladstone.

It's around the information about the national housing strategy promising 2,400 units and 700 units being built. We've talked a lot today about the national housing strategy and some of those definitions that we've been told by the government are going to be ported over to the housing affordability fund.

Mr. Gladstone, would you share some of the reasons why you think the targets of 2,400 have not been met over the years?

[Gary Gladstone]

Thank you very much.

I would suggest that Rome wasn't built in a day. Since the national housing strategy came out, significant efforts have been made and more and more housing is being built. However, it has mostly come from not-for-profits. The for-profit municipalities have not always assisted us as we would have liked.

For instance, through the Intentional Community Consortium, with Reena as the lead agency, a number of our member agencies are now building. It probably takes two to three years from the beginning of the thought that we need to build and we need to be doing something until it comes to fruition.

I would say that considerably more units are in process but are not occupied yet. That's why it's only at 700.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Ms. Whitzman, I want to ask you about modifying funding for CMHC. We've heard a little bit of testimony here that there needs to be some changes at CMHC in the way they fund. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on how CMHC could help support these core needs faster?

[Carolyn Whitzman]

Absolutely. There has been a certain amount of evaluation of the co-investment fund, and certainly of the rental construction financing initiative, that shows the outcomes in terms of meeting the needs of people in core housing need are pretty close to zero. The rapid housing initiative is a slightly different story, but that wasn't in the original national housing strategy. It gets year-by-year funding, but that's really the only program that is meeting the needs of people in core housing need.

There needs to be a revision of the co-investment fund and the rental construction financing initiative in order to steer it towards genuinely affordable outcomes. Really, the CMHC needs to do a slightly better job of reporting annually on its outcomes in relation to the stated goals of the national housing strategy, which is lifting 530,000 households out of housing need.

The other thing I'd say is that a lot of the money is going into demand-side initiatives such as the Canada housing benefit. For instance, the Province of Quebec tends to layer its demand side, its housing benefits, on top of other programs in order to reach rents that are affordable, so kudos to the Province of Quebec. As far as I'm concerned, if you can layer some of these programs on top of one another, lease government land and look at questions of scale, you can get the rents to where they need to be.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you. If I have another.... Am I out? I'll take back my 20 seconds from last time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have gone well over. We may get you to wrap up, Ms. Zarrillo.

We have Mr. Muys for five minutes, please.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your expertise and your specific recommendations and comments. I think that has added a lot of insight to the discussion.

Recognizing that the bells are going to ring, Mr. Chair, and that our time may be cut a little bit short, I want to say up front that I'm going to ask a question, but then I'm going to pass to my colleague Ms. Goodridge, so that she has a chance to ask a question before the time dwindles.

My question is for Mr. Gladstone and Ms. Whitzman, although I invite any others to chime in. We know there are labour shortages in Canada, particularly in the construction sector. We've heard that at this committee, and it's certainly exacerbated by supply chain disruptions.

Are you concerned about the ability of the housing accelerator to meet its goal of 100,000 by 2024-25, given the shortages in labour to construct units? If so, in making sure they reach this important goal, what strategies or considerations might you offer as recommendations to the federal government as they consider that?

[Gary Gladstone]

Thank you very much.

Perhaps I could also take this opportunity to answer MP Zarrillo's prior question. Why they haven't been built is that not all municipalities feel that it's important, and with the federal government's assistance it becomes important.

MP Muys, you have my apologies, but thank you.

Reena just completed the Lou Fruitman Reena Residence during COVID, when there were the hardest times during construction, etc. We completed it on time, actually early and on budget. That is because the contractors we work with knew the need was there and were able to assist us.

In terms of what I can suggest, non-profits working within their community are able to build cheaper, and when they are knowledgeable, better and faster, that is certainly the way. Also, individuals we support with intellectual and developmental disabilities are always looking for jobs. Reena has a tremendous job training program, and we would be delighted to work with more and more trades to allow them to assist as well.

When there's a will, there's a way. The need is so great we will make it happen. It takes a village to raise a child, as we all know. It takes more than one village to raise those with developmental disabilities, and people understand that they are not building typical condos, but there's a reason why they are building what they are. They come in to help big time.

[Carolyn Whitzman]

I share your concern around the 100,000 homes in three to four years. I think that some of the ways that can be improved are through designating large chunks of land, including federal land, to be developed, and encouraging municipalities to do as the City of Victoria recently did—that is, to pre-zone as of right housing for non-profits and getting rid of the NIMBY third-party rights stuff.

I have lots of opinions about changing zoning rules, but those can't be expressed within four to five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Perhaps you can document something. I know that you've provided a written submission as well.

[Carolyn Whitzman]

I'm happy to document it.

The last thing I would say is that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities has been pretty clear that they want an acquisitions fund as part of HAF, and I think that might want to be considered.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you so much to my colleague.

Thanks to all the witnesses.

My question is going to be directed to Chief Michell.

You talked about the resilience in the housing that you're building, and I'm just wondering if the housing accelerator fund gives any space towards that. Further, is there anything that you think the housing accelerator fund could do better to address this need? Being the MP for Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, I think it's pretty evident that we definitely need to be prepared for some of these climate and weird weather spaces that we are in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Chief Michell, before you respond, I need to get unanimous consent for the committee to continue.

There has been a 30-minute bell called, and if the committee agrees, we would adjourn at 10 to one. That would give members enough time to go to the House, and then we could get through the rounds of questions we have.

Do we have—

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

May I suggest a friendly amendment of a quarter to one just so we have sufficient time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It's the wish of the committee. Does the committee wish to adjourn at quarter to one?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll continue until 12:45.

Chief Michell, continue.

[Patrick Michell]

Thank you for the question.

The big challenge for Kanaka Bar is that basically nobody has heard of the products we're using. We were able to find to find a product that's 40% cheaper than anything else on the market and that's fireproof, soundproof, windproof and rodent-proof. One of the things is that no matter who you are, you should really look at the products. These are cementitous in nature and can be built with.

If you look at this, they've been used internationally across the world. We're just really slow at bringing them into Canada. When I first ran, the one product.... If Thea is in design, she should know what AAC is, and if she doesn't, that's the problem with AAC. It's used in Australia, California, Mexico and Siberia. It's the highest-rated product in the world in terms of wind resistance and, I think, earthquake resistance.

When you look at something like the housing adaptation strategy or the national housing strategy, they don't like “new”. All I'm saying is that I want Sarah's projects to just be put in a different place where they're wanted. I want what everybody was talking about here. Don't get hung up on new design. Just steal what's working and build it. Otherwise, the 100,000 is not going to work. It's simply not going to work, because it's an excuse. NIMBY is an excuse. Zoning is an excuse. Archaeology is an excuse, and historical values.... UNDRIP is an excuse.

There are 600-plus bands there waiting to put up inclusive housing. Why won't people step up to that table, surrounded by municipalities? You have funding that's available to municipalities. How come the municipalities aren't speaking to me? I am always asking the municipalities, but do they want affordable housing?

We lost an entire town that was strategically located, and the way it looks here, they could put up affordable housing. I have a meeting with eight chiefs, the municipality and the regional district on the 16th, and we're saying that we're all in. We don't have any money, but if it takes five or six years to get an approval, then we're not going to hit the 2024 target numbers.

All I would say is that, if you have products that are inexpensive, that create jobs for British Columbians and Canadians, and that could be replicated, it will work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Chief Michell.

Thank you, Ms. Goodridge.

We'll end with Mr. Collins for five minutes. That will respect the timeline the committee adopted.

Mr. Collins, you have the last five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for their appearance today.

My first question is to Ms. Hayward about the culturally supportive housing that she referenced in her opening. What would investments look like from the fund as they relate to supporting culturally supportive housing?

[Celeste Hayward]

Culturally supportive housing is essentially housing that requires acknowledgement of indigenous—first nations, Métis and Inuit—cultural needs and accessibility within housing. That starts with design, so how it's put together, how the space is created, what's available in the space, how people access each other and how people create community. It goes all the way to how we interact with the tenants and the services that are provided to the tenants to ensure that there's a connection to create the opportunity for home and that sense of belonging, which I think is a really important part of indigenous ways of knowing across the spectrum—of whatever way that is.

For me, culturally supportive housing is indigenous led and indigenous owned, and indigenous culture is present in every brick, wood, carpet and space for indigenous people with diverse needs and indigenous people who need a place to live. That's what culturally supportive housing is.