Human Resources Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I know you said the intention is to not have any clawbacks. Where would it be in the legislation right now that would give confidence to people that there wouldn't be any clawbacks?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Are you asking for more specificity regarding clawbacks in the legislation?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Right. You can say whatever the best of intentions are. You can say, “This is what we intend to do. This is what we hope will happen. This is what we're negotiating.”

In the legal framework, the legislation, what is in there to give people the confidence that in fact there will not be clawbacks?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As I said, there's only the broad reference to the ability to enter into agreements. Quite frankly, the term “clawback” is shorthand and will be different within every province and territory.

There could be no one description that would capture the potential services or program supports that could be impacted. “Clawback” usually refers to income support that is being taken away because your income goes up too high. We're also dealing with a world in which my bus pass, my pharmacare, my access to employment and training opportunities, my assisted devices...are all at play.

Clawback is a kind of shorthand, but not just for income support. It's for access to all these services.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

It sounds like there's no real guarantee, though. It's the intention, but there's really no guarantee.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

It's more than intention, it's a red line. I've put that in writing to provinces, absolutely.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Right, but it's not in the legislation.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gray.

We will go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for six minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, for joining us here at HUMA committee. Thank you so much for bringing forward, as you describe it, once-in-a-generation legislation. It really does feel, for this committee, that we have the opportunity to make history here. I want to thank you for that.

When I look at this government's poverty reduction strategy, I look at the fact that 300,000 children have been lifted out of poverty because of the Canada child benefit. I look at the fact that 80,000 seniors have been lifted out of poverty because of our work on the GIS and OAS.

What impact do you see the Canada disability benefit having on reducing poverty in our country?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

At its very core, that's what this bill is all about. It's about poverty reduction. It's about addressing the incredibly shameful levels of poverty within our working-age Canadians with disabilities—as I said, 23%.

If done right—and that's going to be my caveat in a lot of your questions—meaning if we successfully and rigorously negotiate with provinces and territories, and if the meaningful participation of the disability community is ongoing, which it will be, this will benefit hundreds of thousands of people. It really will lift a significant number of people out of poverty, big time.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I guess I should begin by introducing myself as well. I apologize. I'm Irek Kusmierczyk, the member of Parliament for Windsor—Tecumseh.

Minister, I wanted to ask you, what advantage does framework legislation provide? What is the advantage to bringing it forward as framework legislation?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

You know, we did a lot of thinking around how we would structure this legislation that would ultimately become law.

Very early on, in working towards what is now in front of us as Bill C-22, we recognized fundamentally that we needed to reflect in our process, as well as our outcomes, our commitment to “nothing without us” and ongoing engagement with the disability community. We needed to put ourselves in a strong position, almost strategically, in dealing with the provinces and territories, the complexity of their systems and how this benefit would interact.

We wanted to find the quickest way forward, the fastest way to put money in people's hands, and that's why we determined that framework legislation was the best vehicle to achieve those three outcomes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

You mentioned the bedrock principle of “nothing without us”, which really underlines all of your ministry's work and all of your work. This bill, as I think everyone knows by now, provides the framework to establish the new benefit in law, leaving the details to the regulatory process.

Again, appreciating and recognizing that bedrock principle of “nothing without us”, how will persons with disabilities and groups that represent persons with disabilities participate in the regulatory process to ensure their voices are heard?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Taking a step back, remember that we're not starting from scratch here. The disability community has been involved. There have been consultations and online surveys; there has been funding to national organizations to enable them to consult with their own communities, and there has been indigenous-led community consultation. All of that will feed in, of course, to benefit design elements.

Additionally, through the regulatory process itself, there's an opportunity to do prepublication consultation. There's an opportunity for public comment after the first draft of the regulations. There's an opportunity to course correct if the feedback is that it's not quite there yet. We are committed.

We've demonstrated over the past six years and I think there's a confidence within the disability community that we consult. We meaningfully engage and listen. People see themselves and their comments reflected in our work on the disability file.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That really seems to be the strength of this framework legislation. It's the fact that it provides an avenue and a platform for the disability community and their voices to really be there from start to finish, including in the important design phase. Is that the thinking with the framework legislation?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Absolutely: It is the bedrock thinking, as you said. It's the idea of sitting across a table and hashing this all out, because it is so complex. There will be literally tens, hundreds, of decisions that will have to be made around benefit interaction. My mind just explodes when I think of it, but the best way to make sure the voices of the disability community are heard is to sit at the table with them, get their advice, get their input and make sure it's reflected in the regulations.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have? One minute? That's perfect.

Minister, you mentioned the complexity of this space and the diversity of the range of disability-related programs and services that are being administered by the provinces and territories. What have you heard on the ground, if anything, from conversations with your colleagues at the provincial and territorial levels?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Well, as I said in my speech, the highest-level message I have received is that they appreciate the early engagement and the flexibility that framework legislation provides: the idea that we are saying to provinces and territories, “You know your systems best.”

Within those systems, we're going to have some shared kind of principles around this benefit. We all agree that people need to be better off. We all agree that this can't negatively impact entitlement to other services and programs. PTs appreciate having been at the table since the very beginning, almost, of the conception of this benefit. They really share a common goal of improving outcomes for people and making people better off.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Louise Chabot, member of Parliament for Thérèse-De Blainville, in Quebec.

Minister, thank you for being here with us today to answer the many questions that we have about the bill. You were correct in thanking all parties for supporting this bill in the House so that it could be studied here at the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

You said in your opening statement that your objectives are clear. I tend to agree. The goal is to reduce poverty without creating a race to the bottom. That being said, for the parliamentarians who will have to vote on the bill, there is something awkward from a democratic standpoint. Most of the bill, except for the objectives, will be implemented through regulations.

For example, subsection 11(1) mentions eligibility criteria for a Canada disability benefit. However, we do not know what the criteria are. We also do not know the amount of the benefit or how it is calculated. Both of these elements will be implemented through regulations. Without any more details, passing this bill would be akin to giving the government a blank cheque.

You tabled Bill C‑35, and then Bill C‑22 a year later. We know why Bill C‑35 did not go any further.

It would be important for us to know two things. First, regarding the poverty line, do you have a minimum amount in mind? Second, you said in your speech that a lot of people have an annual income of $12,600 and that the poverty line ranges from $19,000 to $25,000. What is your department planning to do to actually lift people out of poverty? Surely you must have some idea.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As you said, our goal is to lift people out of poverty. We know that the poverty lines set out in legislation range from $19,000 to $25,000, depending on the region. It is one of our principles that everyone must receive the same amount across the country.

We therefore cannot use regional poverty lines as objectives to lift people out of poverty. However, we know that Canada pension plan disability benefits range roughly from $18,000 to $20,000. Also, if we add old age security and guaranteed income supplement payments together, the sum falls between $19,000 and $20,000. That is a rough estimate of the payment that we have to make to lift people out of poverty. To get a more precise amount, we would have to take into account the interaction with other benefits.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

People living with disabilities are not a homogenous group, and there are many different circumstances. Some receive benefits for transportation, health care, assistance, etc. on top of a basic revenue or social assistance.

In your model based on guaranteed income supplement, are these benefits excluded from the calculation?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I think I understand the question. You are asking if payments made under different benefits are included in the calculation for the Canada disability benefit.

Frankly, that is why we have to negotiate with every province and territory to determine if they consider these payments as income. That will depend on the situation in the different jurisdictions. We will have to figure out if these payments are treated like income. As is the case for the guaranteed income supplement, we are going to set the amount based on each person's income taxes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Your objectives include acting in a way that complements Quebec, the provinces and the territories. In our last meeting, we asked witnesses to give us an idea of what is being done across the country, and they told about programs in three provinces. They did not really have a comprehensive answer to give us and we were told that there was no national inventory.

As parliamentarians and members of this committee, it would be very useful to have the complete picture of what exists in Canada in terms of help and supports for people living with disabilities. I think it would help us understand the issues.

Can you provide that for us?