Human Resources Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Would you be able to provide us with data that talks about your delinquency rate in comparison to, say, the big five banks?

[Romy Bowers]

Yes, we'd be very happy to provide that. We provide information on a quarterly basis as part of our quarterly reporting. We'd be very happy to pull the latest information for you.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Van Bynen, your time is up.

We now have Mrs. Gray for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think the testimony here, today, has been quite enlightening. You referred to the national housing strategy goals as “pie in the sky”. I think “aspirational” was another word you used.

If we look at the Liberal government's housing plan.... It refers to it as “A Home. For Everyone.” It is a comprehensive plan that will “unlock home ownership”. It then lists a number of objectives of the plan, and it lists commitments. I'll point out two commitments, because I think they're relevant to the conversation we're having here today. One is “help renters become owners” and the other is “end chronic homelessness”.

Based on that, and on the communication coming out of the government, which talks about a plan and commitments, those are very definitive. It sounds as if there's a real misalignment with what you're saying here, today—that in fact, this housing strategy is “pie in the sky” aspirational ideas. It's not really something that's achievable.

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, I want to clarify that the national housing strategy has very clear targets, which are, for example, 530,000 households whose housing needs are reduced; the creation of 160,000 new units of housing; the repair of 300,000 housing units; the protection of 385,000 community housing units; 300,000 households provided affordability support through the Canada housing benefit; and 25% of all funding going to women and children. Those are very concrete measures.

With respect to CMHC's aspiration, our goal is that by 2030, all Canadians will have a home they can afford that meets their needs. That is not the goal of the national housing strategy. That is the goal of CMHC. It is the North Star that guides our activities, and it is aspirational in nature.

I want to make sure there's clarity between CMHC's aspiration and the very specific goals of the national housing strategy.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

One thing we're talking about a lot here today is the Auditor General's report about ending chronic homelessness. There is a commitment from the government to end chronic homelessness, yet the Auditor General's report clearly says that...well, we've talked a lot about it here today. We have this $4.5-billion spend, but we don't know whether it's successful. We don't know what it's achieving. It's all laid out in the report. That's very concerning.

I want to ask you a few other questions.

You mentioned the barriers to housing affordability, one of which was red tape, bureaucracy, at different levels of government. Is that, in fact, a barrier to housing affordability in the country? Is that what's adding to it? Is it the bureaucracy and red tape we're seeing at different levels of government? Is that making it more difficult?

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, housing is very local. Housing construction is very local. I talk to developers and not-for-profit housing developers all the time. It is very difficult to work through the levels of permitting and approvals required at the local level.

In budget 2022, there was a new initiative announced by the government, called the housing accelerator fund. CMHC is in the process of developing that. The purpose of that fund is to provide incentives at the municipal level to unlock those barriers at the local level.

I don't always want to cast.... I know there are many ex-municipal politicians in the room. It's very easy to point fingers in the housing space. Sometimes the barriers are not because of bureaucracy. They're also because of things like neighbourhood opposition and the lack of skilled trades in specific neighbourhoods. Housing is complex, and the barriers are complex. It's up to each municipal government or locality to address those.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great, thank you.

Would inflation be another way in which building affordable housing is more difficult? Would that be definitely adding to and making it more difficult?

[Romy Bowers]

When I talk to many developers, as well as non-profit providers, they have noted that construction costs have gone up.

Real estate is a very interest rate-sensitive business. Increasing interest rates definitely impacts the housing development process.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

Would another barrier to building affordable housing also be the low Canadian dollar? The Canadian dollar is not going as far, and we know a lot of items are imported. There's lumber, refrigerators and other things.

Would that also be making it more difficult to meet affordable housing objectives?

[Romy Bowers]

On that, I might call on Bob Dugan, who's our chief economist. He may be more familiar with the impact of the low Canadian dollar on the housing supply chain.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Actually, just because I'm almost out of time, could you maybe table that information? If there's an analysis on that or any information that you could table for this committee, that would be great.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Will that information be provided to the committee?

[Romy Bowers]

Just to confirm, the request is for information on the impact of the low Canadian dollar on housing supply creation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That's correct.

[Romy Bowers]

I will provide that.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's including the costs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Mr. Collins, you have five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Long.

Through you, there seems to be near unanimity around the table that some of the programs are working very well. I think we're almost all agreed that the rapid housing initiative has worked very well for our clients in serving municipalities and not-for-profits. You've pivoted to that program many times when we've been critical of the strategy itself, and I think for good reason: It has worked.

Some of the other questions around the other programs, though, are indicative of the fact that we are struggling to understand why we're not serving more of the population that we would consider vulnerable. How do we change the strategy?

I asked you in my first round of questioning, through you, Mr. Chair, about a reset. If we don't believe that the record supports we're providing are reaching the target populations, what direction do we need to give you and the board to reset those programs to ensure the majority isn't going to the not-for-profits and municipalities? I want to see the vast majority of the resources we provide flow through to the organizations that are serving our most vulnerable populations.

Through you, Mr. Chair, what do you need from us to change those programs, so they're reaching those goals and reaching those populations?

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, housing affordability is a function of the level of funding that's available. I'm not talking about loans, but the level of grant funding. Real estate development is a very risky venture, and it's very expensive to build new housing in Canada. The rent is a function of the level of equity and the level of grant funding that's available to the proponents.

My view is that it's not a sole federal government responsibility to provide that funding. All levels of government need to be very serious about supporting the affordable housing sector. The way to do that is to provide more generous contributions to the non-profit sector.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

To be clear, through you, Mr. Chair, you're the one who created the program. Your board has not just created those programs; you're managing them as well.

If we're not satisfied with the performance around the table—and we are all of different political stripes here—what do we need to do? If we say this hasn't gone far enough, that what you've experimented with in some areas isn't working and we need that to change, what direction do you need from us?

[Romy Bowers]

I believe that greater investments for deeply affordable housing funding are absolutely necessary.

However, I have to also note that the housing system is one system. You need to also have a market housing system that is functioning well. As we've noted in many of our research reports, there is a big disconnect between the demand for market housing and the supply. When the market is not working well, it puts pressure all across the housing system.

It's for this reason that I think there is a public policy benefit in the government's supporting all aspects of the housing system. Definitely, the bulk of the grant funding should go to the non-profit sector, but it's also super important to focus on the entire market.

For example, I and CMHC are big believers that we have a deficit in purpose-built rental housing in Canada. We have not built rental housing in scale for many decades. There is a public policy benefit in supporting the creation of more rental housing.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

I cede the rest of the time to Mr. Long.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Long, you have one and a half minutes.