Human Resources Committee on Dec. 7th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 49 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

We welcome some replacements on the committee today. Mr. Melillo is here, and Madam Kusie is back for a while. Mr. Morrice is joining us as well.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2020. Members are attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. For those participating virtually, please use the “raise hand” function. Before speaking, click on the mike icon.

You have the option of choosing to speak in the official language of your choice. I would ask everybody to speak slowly for the benefit of interpretation services, and if there is a breakdown in interpretation, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it's being corrected.

We are studying Bill C-22, the Canada disability benefit act. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 18, 2022, the committee will resume its consideration of Bill C-22, the Canada disability benefit act.

Before we begin clause-by-clause consideration, I would like to provide members of the committee with some instructions and a few comments on how the committee will proceed with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-22.

As the name indicates, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively, and each clause is subject to debate and a vote. If there is an amendment to the clause in question, I will recognize the member proposing it, who may explain it. The amendment will then be open for debate. When no further members wish to speak, the amendment will be voted on.

Amendments will be considered in the order in which they appear in the bill or in the package each member received from the clerk. Members should note that amendments must be submitted in writing to the clerk of the committee.

As chair, I will go slowly to allow all members to follow the proceedings properly. Amendments have been given an alphanumeric number in the top right corner to indicate which party submitted them. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once moved, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it.

During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. These subamendments must be submitted in writing. They do not require the approval of the mover of the amendment. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time, and that subamendment cannot be amended.

When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first. Then another subamendment may be moved or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it.

Once every clause has been voted on, the committee will vote on the title and the bill itself, and an order to reprint the bill may be required—if amendments are adopted—so that the House has a proper copy for use at report stage.

Finally, the committee will have to order the chair to report the bill to the House. The report contains only the text of any adopted amendments as well as an indication of any deleted clause.

I would like to welcome officials back to committee. They're available here to answer technical questions related to the bill. We have Alexis Conrad, senior assistant deputy minister, and Krista Wilcox, director general, office for disability issues. Welcome.

Also with us today is the legislative counsel, who will direct us on the legal and technical language of the amendments and clauses of the bill.

I would ask them to introduce themselves.

[Émilie Thivierge, Legislative Clerk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm Émilie Thivierge, the legislative clerk. I will be here to help the committee with any questions on the admissibility of amendments.

[Philippe Méla, Legislative Clerk]

Good afternoon.

My name is Philippe Méla. I'm also a legislative clerk.

Émilie will do a fine job answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Mr. Chair, I have a couple of comments, if you don't mind.

First off, the quicker we can get this bill passed, the quicker we can move it forward.

There were 146 submissions, but only 11 of those submissions called for amendments. Ninety-two per cent of those submissions didn't call for amendments. We had 135 witnesses who did not call for amendments.

I recognize we're anxious to go through what we have here, get the bill back where it should be and move it forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of clause 1 and of the preamble are postponed.

(On clause 2)

On clause 2, we have PV-1.

Before we get to it, an amendment is deemed moved pursuant to a routine motion adopted by the committee on December 13, 2021. Nobody has to move an amendment.

For that reason, amendments NDP-1 and LIB-1 cannot be moved as they are identical to PV-1.

Shall PV-1—

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'd like to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Morrice, do you want to comment since it's your amendment?

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

PV-1 adds the definition of “disability” to the bill. The definition being added in the word of the amendment has the same meaning as in section 2 of the Accessible Canada Act. This is the definition:

disability means any impairment, including a physical, mental, intellectual, cognitive, learning, communication or sensory impairment—or a functional limitation—whether permanent, temporary or episodic in nature, or evident or not, that, in interaction with a barrier, hinders a person's full and equal participation in society.

I'll note that this was recommended by the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada and Spinal Cord Injury Canada. It is identical, as you shared, to two amendments being suggested by the NDP and the governing party.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Morrice.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have the floor.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, I just want to acknowledge the good work of our colleague here in committee.

It is an improvement. It strengthens this bill and provides additional clarity. We will be supporting this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Seeing no further discussion, shall PV-1 carry?

Do you want a recorded vote? What is the wish of the committee?

Go ahead, Mrs. Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

For this one we can just nod.

I would say for the entirety of the amendments we should have a recorded vote, other than perhaps this first one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

If there is no disagreement and everybody's in agreement, a recorded division is not required.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 2 as amended agreed to)

(On clause 3)

On clause 3, the amendment PV-2 is deemed moved, pursuant to the routine motion adopted by the committee, as I indicated, on December 13, 2021.

Bill C-22 establishes the Canada disability benefit to reduce poverty and support the financial security of working-age persons with disabilities. The amendment seeks to extend the benefit to persons with disabilities, regardless of whether they are of working age.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 772, “Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.”

In my opinion as chair, the amendment seeks to alter the terms and conditions of the royal recommendation attached to the bill, as adopted at second reading by the House. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

Shall clause 3 carry?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Chair, can I clarify something on a point of order? Were we referring to PV-2?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

The clause, as it is, carries, then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you for the clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The amendment was ruled inadmissible. You are correct, Mrs. Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Shall clause 3 carry?

(Clause 3 agreed to)

(On clause 4)

There are no amendments on clause 4.

(Clause 4 agreed to)

(On clause 5)

On clause 5, we have NDP-2.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have the floor.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is the most important amendment for the NDP at this point in time to support persons with disabilities. The NDP fully believes there is a lot of opportunity to involve the disability community in regulation. We'd like to protect the minimum income of persons with disabilities in this bill.

We have an amendment that says:

(2) A benefit paid under subsection (1) must be sufficient to ensure that the person to whom it is paid does not live below the Official Poverty Line as defined in section 2 of the Poverty Reduction Act.

Mr. Chair, you referred to page 772 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice. I note that page 772 says, around imposing a charge on the public treasury, “if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.” We know that within Bill C-22, there is no specified qualification in regard to the size of this benefit or the benefit itself. I don't see the amendment contradicting page 772, since it has not been previously defined as a specific qualification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Is there any discussion on the amendment?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair.