We were really clear that we wanted to have a certain number of witnesses' testimony. I'm unclear on what's being asked until I have it in front of me.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

My understanding, for clarification, was that, for the first meeting, the full meeting would be devoted to a technical briefing.

Mrs. Falk, did you had your hand up? No.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this motion misrepresents the motion that we passed. I think it's a bit of a stretch for the committee to have a two-hour technical briefing. It could be done outside of the committee's sitting hours.

What I understand from the motion is that it postpones the minister's appearance.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Mrs. Gray.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I respectfully agree with Ms. Chabot. Any member can request technical briefings from staff. I know I just did it myself for something else. If any members want to get more in detail with technical briefing, they can do that themselves. That's always an option to members of Parliament.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Okay, but there is a motion on the floor. It's the motion from Ms. Zarrillo. It's to have a two-hour technical briefing on the first day. I'm going to put it to a vote, unless there's any other discussion.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

With that, we conclude the 15-minute round. We'll suspend for a moment while we transition to the next panel.

I want to thank the departmental staff for appearing. Thank you for your time.

Thank you, Minister Gould, for your presence to conclude the 15 minutes from the other day. Thank you so much.

We will suspend while we transition to the next hour.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, I call to order the second hour of committee meeting number 55. Welcome back.

The committee will resume its study of the subject matter of supplementary estimates (B), 2022-23, vote 1b under the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and votes 1b and 5b under the Department of Employment and Social Development.

I would like to make a few comments for the joining witnesses, who are all appearing in the room in person in this round. Please direct your questions and comments through me, as chair, and I will recognize you. At that time, you will have the floor.

As well, everyone has the option of speaking in the official language of their choice. If there is a disruption in the translation service, please get my attention and we'll suspend while it's rectified.

I'd like to begin by welcoming the Honourable Ahmed Hussen, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion. From CMHC, we have Romy Bowers, president and chief executive officer, and Michel Tremblay, chief financial officer and senior vice-president of corporate services. From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Nisa Tummon, assistant deputy minister in the programs operation branch. From the Office of Infrastructure of Canada, we have Janet Goulding, assistant deputy minister of the community policy and programs branch.

We'll begin, Minister, with a five-minute opening statement from you. You have the floor.

February 14th, 2023 / 5 p.m.

York South—Weston Ontario

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen LiberalMinister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for welcoming me today. I am pleased to be here to outline the plans of our government for housing, supported by the supplementary estimates (B) referred to this committee.

We know that far too many people in Canada struggle to find a home that is affordable and that meets their needs. Quite simply, it is a struggle that should not be there. Every time someone is forced to choose between paying for food and paying for shelter, or is forced to live in unlivable conditions, we all suffer. It is everyone's problem, because everyone benefits from a housing system that is fair and that leaves no one behind.

When we provide people with suitable homes, they succeed, and when they succeed, we all succeed. It is our government's view that every dollar we spend on housing is an investment. It is an investment in people and in communities, and it is an investment in our common prosperity.

That is why we've prioritized housing since the beginning of our mandate in 2015, and why we've made it a cornerstone of our most recent budget. The plans laid out in budget 2022 drive the supplementary estimates that we have provided here today. The estimates contain a number of funding re-profiles to support key planks in our housing plan.

One of the major focuses of our housing plan is to support the most vulnerable. This is why we introduced the rapid housing initiative. Because of the success of the first and second rounds, we introduced in budget 2022 the third round of the rapid housing initiative to build an additional 4,500 units, on top of creating over 10,000 units of deeply affordable housing.

The estimates also include $15 million re-profiled from future years to support the first-time homebuyer incentive, which is a really key program for first-time homebuyers to access the dream of home ownership.

Additional items include the re-profiling of $21 million for the national housing coinvestment fund. This is our flagship program that helps build deeply affordable housing across the country in partnership with municipalities and non-profits.

We are also re-profiling $38 million to support the delivery of the federal lands initiative, which enables surplus federal lands and properties to become available to non-profit organizations to build affordable housing.

These, of course, are just a few examples.

The estimates also include new funding for other budget items, including the Affordable Housing Innovation Fund and the third round of the Rapid Housing Initiative, which is very effective, as I have said before.

These requests are all about making our plan to increase the supply of housing a reality, and ensure that everyone in Canada has a safe and affordable home.

Our plan is grounded in a human rights-based approach to housing and makes it clear that we believe the federal government has a strong role to play in this sector. Indeed, it was our government that appointed the national housing council and the first-ever national housing advocate to advise the federal government as we strive to ensure that all Canadians have the right to a safe and affordable place to call home.

It prioritizes collaboration across the housing system, and the reality is that we cannot do this alone. We need collaboration from other orders of government, the private sector and the non-profit sector.

As always, I appreciate this committee's attention to issues on housing. It is truly one of the biggest challenges we must all work together to tackle.

I'm happy to come back to this committee and answer any questions committee members may have.

Thank you very much.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Aitchison, you have six minutes, please.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here. Thank you for being here in person too. I appreciate very much seeing you again in person, and I think the committee does too.

Minister, would you agree that Canada is facing a housing crisis right now? Would you characterize it as a crisis?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I think we are, as a country, experiencing challenges with respect to everyone having access to a safe and affordable place to call home. It is what motivates, I think, all of us to really pay attention to these issues and to make sure we're doing everything we can to help Canadians access housing that not only is affordable, but actually meets their needs.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Would you not call it a crisis?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I would say it's a challenge faced by many Canadians, and we have to work together to make sure we address those challenges.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

But you wouldn't call it a crisis.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I think I have answered the question, Mr. Chair.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Minister, how many homes does the CMHC say we need by 2030, not just to meet targets but to actually meet some affordability targets? Do you know?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I would say 3.5 million, but I will turn to—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

That's 3.5 million more than the 2.3 million we're probably on target to build as of right now. Do you know that works out to just over one home completed a minute for the next seven years?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I will take your word for it, but what I can say is that the housing supply issue is—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

You don't have to answer that. That's some quick math. I didn't do it very quickly myself. Parker did it for me.

That's a lot of homes. We have a crisis, not just in housing but in labour. There are not enough people to build these homes. We're struggling there. We have a situation where the affordability situation in this country is only getting worse. In fact, RBC just reported in their most recent report that it has never been so unaffordable to buy a home in this country.

However, when this government came into office it came up with this national housing strategy, Minister. You weren't the minister at the time, but I'm sure you remember there was great fanfare. This was a generational change in housing. It was going to be the first ever. You just described it as the first-ever truly national housing strategy, yet the situation today is worse than it has ever been.

The number of homeless people in Toronto has gone up dramatically. The number of homeless people who have died in Toronto doubled year over year. The number of young people who have given up the hope of ever even owning a home is nine out of 10 right now in this country.

The CMHC has received all kinds of funds for these various different programs that they deliver in the national housing strategy. We have found out from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, though, that for three or four of those programs they hadn't even spent half of their allocated funding over the first three years of the program. Now, of course, we're looking for more money for a new program, yet the situation isn't improving.

I'm wondering how you can't agree that we're in a crisis in this country. The number of people who are homeless is going up. The tent cities are growing. The number of people who have given up on the dream of owning a home continues to go up. We're desperately short of purpose-built rentals in this country.

Then, of course, we also heard from the Auditor General that the CMHC and Infrastructure Canada on their various different housing programs weren't exactly sure if their programs were even working. In fact, when we asked the Auditor General about that, if there is someone who is going to be coordinating this effort, she reported back to us that she was actually disappointed to report that the response back was that by the end of this year there would be a champion who would actually coordinate the efforts of these agencies.

Your government has committed $70 billion. We're just about to give you a bunch more. The situation is worse than it has ever been. The number of people dying in homeless shelters is growing. How can you not see that as a crisis?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ahmed Hussen Liberal York South—Weston, ON

There's a lot to unpack there, Mr. Chair, but I'll make an effort in the time remaining to address some of the issues.

I would really remind the member that our national housing strategy has been having an impact, and we have been measuring that. For the investments that we've made so far.... Remember that it's a 10-year program, so of course we haven't spent all the money. The fact that it's a 10-year plan is an effort we're making as a government to show our partners that the federal government is not only back in the space after a long period of absence, I may add, under your party, but that we want to be a reliable, dedicated, long-term, stable funding partner. So far, we've invested $36 billion, which is a significant amount of money, to build or repair over 480,000 homes. That is not an insignificant number—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

But it's not enough.