Human Resources Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Of course it's not enough. There's more work to be done, but that is a lot of progress that we've made.

In addition to that, as we're building and repairing more affordable housing units and purpose-built rental units, we're also providing direct rental supports to tens of thousands of Canadians through the Canada housing benefit. I would say, yes, more work needs to be done, but we've done a lot.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

We're out of time, unfortunately, but we're going to come back to this in a minute.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.

Mr. Collins, you have six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, Minister and officials.

I don't have any questions for the minister, but I do for the staff who are present here.

I had the opportunity about a year ago, sitting in this same chair, to ask questions of CMHC, and my experience with CMHC historically hasn't been a positive one. Of course, I was a long-time city councillor since the mid-1990s. I chaired our municipal non-profit for many years, and I have to say that I share in the frustration of many of the service providers who have sent issues to my office over the last year since I've been in in this new chair in this position here in Ottawa.

It's important to recognize, as the minister pointed out, that there were decades when the federal government was not involved in the federal housing scene. They were completely absent. In fact, they downloaded those responsibilities to the provinces and municipalities, and in turn, the province, under the Harris government, for those of us in Ontario, downloaded the responsibility of affordable housing to municipalities. Then municipalities and non-profits have since been left to their own devices in terms of trying to find resources to make this situation better. Of course, that's almost impossible to do on the backs of local ratepayers.

Within that context, I think it's important to understand that a lot has changed with the plan that was put forward. As a councillor wearing a different hat, I celebrated the release of the national housing strategy. It is historic, notwithstanding what you might have just heard. The funds that were attached to that document are historic. These are record amounts of resources that have been provided to assist municipalities and non-profit housing providers across the country.

Where things have stalled, in my personal opinion, is in its implementation, so I have some questions to CMHC along those lines. I would start with some of the complaints from service providers from my riding and my municipality who have complained that the applications are long and onerous and that they're costly to municipalities and non-profits. They complain that verbal commitments are provided at the start of that process, and by the end of the process, which might take 18 months to two years, what was first promised by CMHC representatives at the start of the application process doesn't transpire at the end and the amounts provided, either in a loan or grant form, fall far short of what was originally promised by whomever they were dealing with at CMHC.

The concern that I have is that there's a lot of room for customer improvement here, and I asked you at previous meetings about whether you do surveys to applicants. Of course, I think many are reluctant to bite the hand that feeds them, so I would question the results along those lines.

I must share with you my frustration in terms of dealing with applicants in the last six to eight months, since the last time you were here. I might as well be talking to myself in the hallway against the wall, because the responses I get, if I get them, don't assist. I question why we've given so many resources to an organization that just can't seem to help service providers or help us with what many would call a crisis. I think it's a crisis in municipalities, whether you're rural, urban or whatever. There's a crisis in this country, and I think that, for whatever reason, CMHC is unwilling or unable to provide the services that many require.

Along those lines, we recently talked about the housing accelerator fund. Almost to a witness, people who appeared before this committee talked about how those funds should be distributed, and almost to a stakeholder they went on to say that it should go directly to municipalities. They said it should go directly to FCM. They said it should go directly to the provinces. What they didn't say is that CMHC should receive those funds, and I found that quite telling.

To start with the housing accelerator fund, are CMHC reps concerned about the fact that stakeholders from across the country provided information to the committee that suggested that CMHC should not be in charge of the housing accelerator fund?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That's for Ms. Bowers.

You have two minutes.

[Romy Bowers, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Mr. Chair, thank you for that question.

I do appreciate the question because customer service is very important to CMHC. I'm very disappointed to hear about the recent experience the MP has had with CMHC. There's no doubt that CMHC has been out of direct housing delivery for many decades. There were many lessons learned, especially in the early days of the delivery of the national housing strategy.

We have made very dedicated efforts to improve our delivery. We've cut our delivery times by up to 50%. We do survey our clients at every step in the application process. We measure client satisfaction and their feelings about the efficiency of our process. We have a feedback loop to make sure that any criticism or feedback is acted upon. We reward our employees on the actual value of these scores.

I'd like to explore some of the specific instances of very bad client experiences that are cited here. Just looking at CMHC delivery as a whole, it's not to say we're perfect, but we're measuring the feedback that we get from our clients and acting on any disappointments or dissatisfaction with our services.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for that, Ms. Bowers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have time for just a short question.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I have one short one. They're back next week, so that's fine.

My concern is that this was the answer provided last year. How many budget cycles does it take to get it right from an application perspective?

We're now five or six budget years into.... For sure, they're back in the affordable housing game. My question would be, is it in year seven, year eight...? When are they going to nail this down?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Give a short answer.

[Romy Bowers]

If I could provide an example, in response to criticism from clients about the length of our application process, we instituted a new process for a contribution-only stream. Under that stream, applicants can complete applications in less than 10 minutes, and CMHC can provide within four weeks.

This is a significant improvement in turnaround times. We've received very positive feedback from our clients on that part of the initiative.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you. I'm sure we'll revisit that.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses.

Ms. Bowers and Mr. Hussen, thank you for being here to discuss this important issue.

Earlier, one of my colleagues asked you if there was a housing crisis. You did not answer. I'm going to get to it more directly.

Mr. Hussen, is the National Housing Strategy a failure?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

No.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Fine.

You talked about a plan to address the need to build 3.5 million homes over the next 10 years. A CMHC study even said that we need to build about 3 million homes in Canada by 2030. A CMHC economist said that, in Quebec alone, we would need 1.1 million housing units over the next 10 years and that the market alone could build 500,000 units. So there is a shortfall, just in Quebec over the next 10 years, of 600,000 units to be built to address the two priority issues of access, which is providing housing for people, and affordability, which is providing housing that people can afford.

According to the Federal Housing Advocate, at the midpoint of the National Housing Strategy, 35,000 units have been built and 65,000 units have been renovated. That's 100,000 units. Again, just in Quebec, we need the government or someone else to step in and build 600,000 units over the next 10 years to meet the need.

You say that the National Housing Strategy is not a failure, all in all. Can you explain that statement to me, please?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

It's very simple. Since the introduction of the national housing strategy, we've invested $36 billion to build or repair over 480,000 units across the country, including in Quebec. We have put in place the Canada housing benefit, which is now available—

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Excuse me. You talk about 480,000 units in Canada, but can you tell me approximately how many units have been built in Quebec in the last five years?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Since 2015, we have invested more than $5.3 billion in Quebec to help more than 409,000 families and individuals get the housing they need.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Since the strategy was launched in 2017, how many housing units have been built in Quebec?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That would be 480,000 affordable homes—homes that were built or repaired across the country. I'm very sure a significant portion were included. I would be able to get those numbers.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Do you not have any figures for Quebec, Mr. Hussen?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I don't have those specific numbers, but I would be happy to get back to you.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You understand the issue: you can spend money, but if housing is not being built, it doesn't achieve much.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

First of all, we are building. I challenge your assertion. This program has been very effective in building affordable housing across the country, including in Quebec. You can say we need to build more, but to say we just spent money and nothing was built is completely untrue. I can't let you say that without challenging you.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Fine.

I repeat that right now, according to the CMHC economists themselves, the government must intervene to build 600,000 housing units just in Quebec. We need some kind of Marshall Plan to deal with this huge crisis. Is that something you're considering?

You must be able to see for yourself that the results are not there in terms of the needs. According to the latest CMHC figures, vacancy rates have fallen in Quebec and rental prices have risen by 14.5% in Montreal alone. These are figures that jump out at us and show that the crisis is ongoing. It is in fact worse than ever. You must know that.