Human Resources Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

It being 3:30, I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 55 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee will resume its study of the subject matter of supplementary estimates (B), 2022-23: vote 1b under Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, as well as votes 1b and 5b under Department of Employment and Social Development, and the service standards for passport renewal.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, meaning there will be members and witnesses appearing in the room and virtually online.

I would ask you to direct all your questions or inquiries through the chair and wait until I recognize you before speaking. You have the option to speak in the official language of your choice. If interpretation services are interrupted or there is a problem, please get my attention. We will suspend while they are being corrected.

I will remind those attending virtually that if there's an issue with your headset and it has not been approved by the House of Commons, then I will not recognize you. You will be able to participate for voting but not verbally in the meeting. That's for the benefit of those providing translation services. Again, all comments must be addressed through me.

We will begin with the subject matter of supplementary estimates (B).

I would like to welcome our witnesses, beginning with Minister Karina Gould, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. We have in the room Jean-François Tremblay, deputy minister; Karen Robertson, chief financial officer and senior assistant deputy minister; Catherine Adam, senior assistant deputy minister; Tammy Bélanger, senior assistant deputy minister; Cliff Groen, associate deputy minister; Karen Hall, associate assistant deputy minister; Mary Crescenzi, assistant deputy minister; and Mary Ann Triggs, assistant deputy minister, Service Canada.

We will begin. I will advise committee members that we have a 15-minute extension to this first hour because of a communication problem at the last meeting. That 15 minutes will be added to the end of the first hour.

We'll begin with Minister Gould.

Minister, you have up to five minutes to make an opening comment. You have the floor.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Minister of Families]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and committee members.

It's good to be back here.

First of all, I want to apologize. I had every intention of being there in person. Unfortunately, I appear to have come down with a rather nasty bug, and I didn't think it would be kind to infect everyone with whatever it is that I have.

I will now speak to the supplementary estimates (B) for 2022-23 that pertain to my portfolio as Minister of Families, Children and Social Development Canada.

ESDC is the largest federal service delivery organization in Canada. As demonstrated during the COVID-19 pandemic, the programs and services ESDC delivers are essential and make a difference in the lives of Canadians. The requests today aim to strengthen protections and continue building a stronger, more inclusive country.

The old age security program paid more than $60 billion in benefits to 7 million claimants last year. Since 2004, the number of clients has increased by 67%, and the number of clients is expected to rise to more than 10 million by 2035. Each week, the department receives about 62,000 new applications.

Employment and Social Development Canada is requesting $46.4 million to serve Canadians effectively and increase the capacity of the pension call centre to better respond to applications and reduce wait times.

To help seniors, we need to be able to effectively deliver the old age security program. We are requesting an additional $13.5 million for operating expenses to modernize the computer system and improve the delivery of old age security. These funds will facilitate the creation of a new contact centre model that will have a well-trained and integrated workforce to provide a high quality of service.

EDSC's computer systems are at risk of failure. We are requesting $16.3 million to stabilize computer systems to improve network performance and mitigate risks.

Let me quickly mention other initiatives for which we seek funding.

The Black-led philanthropic endowment fund is a budget 2021 initiative under the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion. It seeks to create a sustainable source of funding for Black-led, Black-focused and Black-serving non-profit organizations and registered charities.

Minister Qualtrough also spoke about this initiative the last time she was before this committee. With approximately $200 million, ESDC will support the implementation and provide one national recipient organization with the means to establish and operate the endowment fund, beginning in the 2022-23 fiscal year. This investment will work to reduce anti-Black racism and improve the social and economic outcomes in Black communities.

Second, the investment readiness program is a $50-million initiative to advance social innovation and social finance. Approximately $4.4 million will help social purpose organizations build their capacity and skills to find innovative ways to tackle social inequality, reduce poverty and fight climate change.

Third, I would like to mention the historic early learning and child care agreements that the federal government has signed with all the provinces and territories. These agreements aim to reduce regulated child care fees, create high-quality, flexible and inclusive child care spaces, as well as support early childhood educators.

$4.4 million will support the early learning and child care innovation program, as well as other child care research and data collection projects. This additional funding will be used to explore, test, and develop ways to help families access child care, as well as to fill gaps and improve the knowledge needed to build a Canada-wide system.

Finally, I will discuss indigenous early learning and child care.

We know that culturally appropriate early learning and child care services designed by and in collaboration with indigenous partners give indigenous children the best possible start in life.

The $1.9 million requested will be used to advance the commitments outlined in the jointly developed indigenous early learning and child care framework and to support strategies developed by first nations, Inuit and Métis governments and organizations.

Finally, there is the need for public health measures at Service Canada centres. Since Service Canada centres reopened in 2020, in-person client interactions have doubled. ESDC is seeking $5.9 million to address public health requirements to protect both clients and staff.

There is no doubt the financial resources requested will improve the standard of living and quality of life for all Canadians.

Thank you. I am now happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now open the floor for questions, beginning with Ms. Ferreri for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, can I ask you what your service standards are for funding programs for jobs, training and social development projects within Employment and Social Development Canada? What is that time frame? How many weeks does it take for a response?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Ms. Ferreri, thank you for the question.

I'll defer to my officials, because it's actually Minister Qualtrough who's responsible for that area of the department.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Okay, that's fine. I'll tell you that it's 22 weeks.

The reason I ask you that, Minister, is that we know from your mandate letter that the community services recovery fund is critical. We know these charities and not-for-profits desperately rely on this, especially as they recover from the pandemic.

I wrote you a letter and handed it to you in the House on January 24, 2022, asking for an update, as many of these organizations had come to me because they hadn't heard. Based on your service standards, they should have heard back, with the 22-week period being July 26. However, the fund wasn't announced until January 6, 2023—so just over a month ago. These not-for-profits and charities have just over a month and a half—less than two months—to apply.

I have two questions here, Minister. Why are you not able to maintain your own service standards, and why the delay?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

First of all, Ms. Ferreri, thank you for the question and thanks for raising this issue.

Unfortunately, you're mixing up two different issues. The 22-week service standard is for the grants and contributions programs that the department runs. The CSRF is a separate initiative. It's unique. It's a one-time initiative that we are running, so the same kind of service standards don't apply because it's not the same kind of program.

It's a $400-million fund, as you know. It's being delivered by three national funders, which are the Canadian Red Cross, the Community Foundations of Canada and the United Way. We had to negotiate with these partners to make sure we had a fund that was ready and available.

Because it is new and different, it took a little bit longer than we had anticipated. However, what I have heard from the charitable sector is a real excitement about it and gratitude because it's a fund that is doing something that is very different.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, Minister. I only have so much time, so I do apologize for interrupting.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Sure. If you would like, I can explain the CSRF to you more.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

No. That's okay.

I think where the frustration lies, from what I'm hearing back, is that we have seen repeatedly through your government that the time frame in which to apply and to deliver the money is so short and so rushed that things are being wasted. It's not done properly.

What are your service standards then, Minister? You're giving us an example and you're trying to take us in another direction, but you're not taking accountability for this major delay.

What are your service standards? Do you have any? Do you think that less than two months is a fair amount of time to apply, for a group of people who, quite frankly, cannot survive without this money?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Again, Ms. Ferreri, you're mixing up two different issues here.

The service standards you're talking about are for things like Canada summer jobs, the grants and contributions initiatives—

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

What are your service standards? That's the question I asked, Minister. I asked for your service standards for this, then.

I hear that you have cleared that up, so what is the service standard for this?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

This is a different initiative. This is based on consultations with the charitable and not-for-profit sector.

As I was explaining to you before you asked the question again, this is something the charitable sector has asked for. What I have heard from them, right across the country, is that they are very grateful for it because it's providing funding for core activities that aren't normally funded through other kinds of Gs and Cs initiatives.

This is being delivered through our partners—through the Red Cross, the United Way and the Community Foundations. We launched the program in response to the asks of the community. They asked us to do it following the Christmas period because that's one of the most busy periods of time for them. They also said there was a need for this to roll out quickly.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I do appreciate that. I think we're having two different discussions here.

The answer I'm trying to get from you is.... These folks—maybe they are telling you different things than they are telling me—are at your mercy, Minister. You say you're going to get this $400 million rolled out to them, but they don't know when and they don't know where. They assume it's going to be in a timely fashion.

I think, honestly, that there's an opportunity here for you to say that maybe you could have done this better and given it more time.

I guess that's what I'm asking. I'm speaking on behalf of a lot of these organizations. This money absolutely is important.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Ms. Ferreri, all of that information is publicly available. Over the past two months, our three national funders have been doing extensive online workshops and reaching out to their local communities to make sure they have all of that information.

We listened to them in the sense that they asked us to please not launch this before or during the Christmas period, because that's a very busy time for them. We have been engaged with the charitable and not-for-profit sector the entire time. We have listened to them and their needs.

The fund will close on February 23. We have received thousands of applications already, which is really exciting because, as you say, this money is really important and needed in the charitable and not-for-profit sector. The three national funders are going through doing those assessments. They will be rolling out those funds in the coming months.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

Ms. Martinez Ferrada, you have six minutes.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for participating in the meeting despite the flu or virus that you have.

In my riding, many families have received or are receiving the Canada child benefit. One of the reasons our government put it in place was to tackle poverty. Trying to lift children out of poverty is a priority of our government.

Can you tell us what the initiatives are in this area and how the Canada child benefit is actually supporting families today?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much for the question, Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

By the way, it was truly a pleasure to be with you in Montreal a few weeks ago when we visited the folks at the Cirkaskina project, who are doing extremely important work for vulnerable children and youth.

With respect to the Canada child benefit, the results are really incredible. Over 3.5 million families receive that benefit, which has helped many children get out of poverty. The child poverty rate was 16.3% in 2015. By 2019, within just five years, it was down to 9.4%.

Of course, there is always work to be done, but these results are extremely important. There is a direct link to the Canada child benefit.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Minister, let's now make a connection with child care and education for children. As we know, we have established child care across the country.

Can you tell us how the early learning and child care innovation program is advancing work with young children?

How is the government's child care initiative working, overall? What can you tell us about the programs and innovation projects we currently have?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I had the great pleasure of announcing some 16 innovation projects last year. For a number of them, I had the opportunity to visit the sites.

One program that I think stands out a lot is the GRIT program in Alberta. It really plays a leading role in the inclusion of developmentally delayed children with disabilities. The people in the GRIT program are now doing research work based on what they have learned and looking at ways to bring that to the whole country.

Projects like this, which target groups of children who may be more vulnerable or excluded, are innovative. We're trying to find ways to disseminate the information we've gathered and the lessons learned across the country.

There are many really interesting initiatives.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

The committee has undertaken a study on the supporting black Canadian communities initiative. You spoke earlier about the fund for community organizations, whose model requires going through an intermediary. Yet we hear that this model is very popular.

What do you think of the current operation of the supporting black Canadian communities initiative? What do you think that program's future looks like?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I would like to thank the committee for undertaking a study on the supporting black Canadian communities initiative.

Canada is currently celebrating Black History Month. I had the opportunity last week to speak to a number of people who receive funding from that initiative. That funding is making a huge difference for them.

It is important to work with intermediaries because those organizations are on the ground, and they know the community stakeholders and needs. So they are in a good position to make sure that these funds are spent appropriately and that they go to where they are needed.

These funds will be provided for another year. I know there is still a demand. I hope the funding continues, as it really does make a difference.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Minister, I have only about 30 seconds left. Do you want to add anything regarding the topic that has brought you before our committee today?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Concerning the community services recovery fund, I would just like to add that organizations across the country have until February 21 to apply.

I hope that all the committee members, as well as all the other members of Parliament, will share this information with community organizations in their riding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

Ms. Chabot, go ahead for six minutes.