Evidence of meeting #58 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:10 a.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Quebec is a leader in relation to child care services because children are the priority. Given that fact, is the compensation you are going to give Quebec under Bill C-35 going to be generous?
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
Yes. It is determined by a formula based on the number of children under the age of 12. That is how we have divided the funding for each province and territory, and it is the same thing for Quebec.
Of course, Quebec took the initiative 25 years ago, when the federal government did not yet have a role in this field, and we have based a number of our objectives and principles on Quebec's experience for working with the other provinces and territories.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
It's nice to see you, Minister.
I know the Department of Justice is working on a co-developed process for free, prior and informed consent and that Bill C-35 includes a commitment to furthering UNDRIP. This was indicated by Madame Reddin in the last meeting, but we know this response isn't adequate, because we know there cannot be one single definition for “free, prior and informed consent”. Rather, as it is law, in fact, that circumstances determine how it's applied. This would also be true for Bill C-35.
Therefore, will the minister acknowledge this and take appropriate measures to enshrine the right of indigenous peoples to make decisions in matters impacting our own children?
I share this because it's the very foundation of reconciliation, especially in light of the findings of the TRC, which were based on the testimony of residential school survivors who were robbed from their families. This government has been stalling on enshrining FPIC—free, prior and informed consent. We're coming up to the two-year mark; you have a month and a half left. This is part of the law. You had two years to develop a plan, and there's nothing on the table yet. This isn't acceptable. We have an opportunity here to do the right thing.
Again I'm wondering, Minister, if you'll acknowledge this and take appropriate measures to enshrine FPIC and ensure the rights of indigenous peoples to have full free, prior and informed consent over matters impacting our children.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
Thank you, Ms. Gazan, for being here and for your intervention.
We certainly share the same objective. I think it's very important to see Bill C-35 as a tool complementary to the co-developed framework on indigenous early learning and child care.
One thing we have been very careful not to do is have Bill C-35 go beyond the bounds of the co-developed framework that we did with indigenous early learning and child care, which was announced in 2018 and endorsed by the AFN, ITK and MNC at the time.
I've noted one thing very clearly in the travels I've done in the past year around the country. I made a specific note while visiting with indigenous communities and leaders advancing IELCC: This is distinctions-based, indigenous-led and culturally relevant, and it incorporates language learning as well. It's very much indigenous-led and something that is.... We are a funding partner. We co-developed this, but we need to see this as a partnership—
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I think that's all positive, going back to Bill C-15, but all future legislation is supposed to be in line with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People, so I would push back on that.
I will move on to wages and working conditions.
I think everybody knows I was formerly an early childhood educator. I'm very proud. We know the average wage for an early childhood educator is $19.50 an hour. That's not a liveable wage in most places.
Unions representing child care workers support adding an explicit, clear commitment to decent work to Bill C-35. We know that in order to make this work, we need a robust workforce. We also know that research, in study after study, indicates that poor pay and working conditions are deterrents to joining the sector. That's exactly why I left my job as an ECE. I didn't want to live on the no-salary we were provided for the important work we do.
Is your government resistant to adding language that establishes liveable wages and fairer working conditions as guiding principles for federal funding? I say this because your party, in a platform in 2021, came out and vowed to push for a $25 minimum wage for personal support workers. I support that. Care work is critical work.
Are you willing to support the same sort of liveable wage for early childhood educators?
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
I absolutely support a liveable wage for early childhood educators, and I have been in a lot of discussions with provincial and territorial counterparts on this issue.
This legislation, as I mentioned, is about the federal role. Wages are the purview, when it comes to child care, of provinces and territories; however, the multilateral frameworks and the legislation highlight quality. Obviously we can't have quality if we don't have a talented, caring, well-compensated workforce. Each of the agreements requires that provinces and territories put forward plans to recruit and retain ECEs.
We've seen over the past year many provinces and territories put wage top-ups in place. Often they're not as much as is needed, but I can say that for all of my provincial and territorial counterparts, this is the number one thing they are working on this year. For the national advisory council, that's the first piece of work they're doing as well.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
To push back, you did do that for personal care workers federally. Anyway, I'm just pushing back.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
We know that study after study has found that public not for-profit care delivers high-quality services. In the bilateral agreement with Alberta that you created, you committed to 42,500 not-for-profit care spaces. I support that, but then in January 31, 2023, you funded 22,500 for-profit spaces instead.
Why did your government, after tabling a bill that put not-for-profit public care spaces at a priority, not instead fund 22,500 not-for-profit and public spaces?
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
They are cumulative. Alberta is still required to create 42,500 not-for-profit spaces, of which they've created about 7,000 so far. The 22,500 in the private sector was something that was held back until Alberta came forward with a cost control framework, because we wanted to ensure that any public funding that was going to for-profit providers was going to be well spent and well managed. They are public dollars at the end of the day. This is similar to New Brunswick and P.E.I., which have very robust public oversight and don't necessarily distinguish between not-for-profit and for-profit providers.
In order for Alberta to pursue that, they had to provide a similar kind of assurance to the federal government.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for being here today.
Minister, you've referenced building 250,000 new spaces. How many new child care workers will be required to accommodate this?
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
StatsCan reports that the greatest percentage of children in child care are younger than school age. If we use the average of six children per child care worker, as fewer are needed for infants and more for school-aged children, that would mean 41,000 new child care workers, as you have said.
If we continue doing that math, if we look at all of these spaces and look at an average child care facility of about 75 children, which is quite large, that would mean 3,338 new child care facilities would have to be constructed in order to accommodate these 250,000 new children in the system, and that's within three years. The document that we had from your department said it's within three years. What is the plan to open more than 3,000 child care facilities with very large numbers of 75 children per facility over the next three years?
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
On our website, each province and territory has submitted an action plan. It's all public information that details their plans for opening new spaces. About 50,000 have been opened or announced in the last year, which I think puts us in a good position. Remember, that's in the first year of this program. We look to ramp up, so provinces and territories are working hard on this, and they're doing a great job. They have plans to make sure that they are getting to areas where child care is underserved.
This is fresh in my mind, because I was in Regina on Monday. The YMCA there partnered with a co-op and the Government of Saskatchewan, and they have increased from 80 to 170 spaces in the past couple of months. They got a new space. There is lots of really great work happening around the country.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
A lot of that information is more on the not-for-profit side and doesn't include for-profit spaces. When we look at reports that have been done by Statistics Canada, we see that the locations number about a third of the for-profit locations, which are quite often in-home locations that are very small.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
Those are included in the not-for-profit category.
If you're a home day care, we've included you in the not-for-profit category. There's lots of opportunity to expand in home day cares as well.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
When we also look at the workers who are needed for that, reports are showing that within the next 10 years, we will need replacement workers for over 60% of workers. When we look at the labour force of that many new workers, which you said was around 40,000, and add the number of replacement workers over the next 10 years, we see that about 181,000 workers will have to be replaced. Once you add the two of them up, you're looking at well over 200,000 workers.
What's the plan for that?
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
We're up for the challenge.
This is a nation-building endeavour. This is a really exciting thing that's happening across the country. Provinces and territories are increasing seats at colleges for ECEs. The College of the North Atlantic, for example, in Newfoundland, and Sask Polytechnic in Saskatchewan are putting together strategies. Again, all this information is public on the Government of Canada's website. Everyone can look up the action plans and can look up the bilateral agreements.
They have to put in place retention plans as well. Manitoba has done a great job in terms of putting forward a benefits and pension plan. They have more work to do, but they're working on it. B.C. has done some really great work in a new program for high school students so that they can graduate as an accredited ECE and not have to go to college. There are lots of really interesting and innovative things happening around the country.
Whether it's a national advisory council on early learning and child care or the upcoming FPT meeting, the workforce is going to be the main topic that we will be discussing, because it's fundamental to making the system a success.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
For a lot of those strategies and the timelines that we're looking at, what happens if those timelines aren't met?
You're looking at a three-year timeline to build thousands of new facilities. Of course, we know even getting a building permit in a lot of municipalities can sometimes take many months or many years. You're looking at having people go through the programs.
Do the numbers really add up? Do the numbers really match up?
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
Yes. Yes, they do. We're going, right?
I have to say that regardless of political stripe at provincial and territorial levels, everyone is committed and engaged in this endeavour. They are excited about it and they are working hard.
There are great public servants across this country who are thinking about these challenges. Then there are amazing child care providers and ECEs who are just so excited about this and thinking about how they can expand their services. I have to say that it's ambitious, yes, and it's a challenge, absolutely, but there are a lot of folks who are really engaged in making it a reality.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Thank you, Chair. Good morning to my colleagues and the minister and everybody else. Thank you for being here.
I'll tell a quick story. A hundred years ago, when our kids were very young, I can remember very well sitting down with my wife Denise to make a decision on whether she could afford to go to work or had to stay home. The costs even then were so significant. I remember that we were there with a calculator. We had two kids, so it would be this much and you make this much, but then there's the mileage and all these things, so we made a conscious decision that Denise would stay home for many years to look after the kids because we couldn't afford day care.
Obviously, all of us have constituents who come in and tell us those same stories. Costs now are anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000 per year for families. Those are after-tax dollars. It's just significant. Again, as I said in our last meeting, we're all here to do great things for our constituents and our country, but this program is truly transformational.
Could you comment on how significant it is for families, number one, and what an economic opportunity it's going to be to bring so many parents, in particular women, back into the workforce and what that's going to do for our economy?
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
Yes. My goodness, the stories I get to hear from people across the country are just amazing. It's life-changing for so many people. I've had people come up to me to say they've decided to have a second kid because of this. How much more meaningful do you get? I heard from a family that was able to keep their home because of this program. They had a variable-rate mortgage, and the reduction in child care fees meant that they could afford the difference. They were actually having to decide between the two, and this has changed their lives. A woman in Nova Scotia said to me that because of the child care fee reductions, when she goes to the grocery store, she doesn't decide if she can buy chicken or not. It's so meaningful.
In every province or territory that I visit, every time I go, I meet with a mom—and I'm sure there are dads, too; I just haven't talked to them yet—who says she is going back to work because of this. She can now afford to go back to work. I know there are people who say women shouldn't have to make that choice, but it's not a choice if you can't afford it. The empowerment and the ability to have that financial security is so important and it's so meaningful. I have to say that it's just been incredible.
If women in the rest of Canada rejoin the workforce at the same rates that Quebec women did 25 years ago, that's 240,000 additional people working in our country.
