Human Resources Committee on March 10th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

I have to stop there. We're well over the time.

Mr. Van Bynen, you have six minutes, please.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I grew up in a family of 15, and I think child care in our household would have made a huge difference in the livelihood of our family. I'm quite pleased to see that we are moving forward in these important social support programs that strengthen families and give women an opportunity to go forward.

I'd like to explore the Quebec experience with Mr. Fortin a little further. Paragraph 7(1)(a) of the bill proposes the guiding principles for the federal investments to aim to “facilitate access to early learning and child care programs and services—in particular those that are provided by public and not for profit child care providers”, which continues on the discussion we're having now.

You mentioned earlier that one of your concerns is that there is a shortage of spaces. Do you feel that this is the correct approach and, in your opinion, will targeting the support primarily for public and not-for-profit providers provide enough child care spaces to meet the current and future demand?

[Pierre Fortin]

Yes. At the end of the 2000s, there was still a significant shortage of spaces in the Quebec system. That is why the government stepped in, to increase competition with what Ms. Mathieu was just describing as "private daycares". That worked very well and a large number of private daycares were opened.

University researchers analyzed the quality of their services based on all sorts of recognized international criteria, and revealed that only a small minority of private daycares could be considered to be good or excellent.

That is the reason why we realized that private daycares were competitive on price, but were not competitive on quality, and that if they were to be kept in the system, they would have to be required to meet the quality standards applied in early childhood centres, the CPEs, and obviously they would have to be monitored. That has been very difficult to do. Even many owners of private daycares are now calling on the government to transform them into CPEs, to give parents quality guarantees.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to come back to that later, but there is one other question I want to pursue, and that is with Dr. Mathieu.

I note that you're on the national council. My question is this: What were your successes, and what are your challenges? I see that under section 14, your mandate is to “provide advice to the Minister” and to “conduct engagement activities”.

Someone earlier made the statement that there was not sufficient consultation. Could you talk to me about your successes relative to consultation and engagement, and some of the challenges going forward?

[Dr. Sophie Mathieu]

I can't speak today as a representative of the National Advisory Council on Early Learning and Child Care. I was told that very clearly before I appeared before the committee.

I just want to say that I do not agree entirely with the comment that was made. The Council is very broadly representative and brings together people who represent Quebec, Indigenous communities and educators, as well as a lot of people working in the field.

I don't want to make any comments on the work done by the Council. However, regarding its composition, I think it really is very representative and offers a high degree of expertise, coming from both academics and people in the field. There is also good representation of Indigenous communities.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

I'll go back to Mr. Fortin this time.

With my banking background, I'd say that we need to recognize some goals that are measurable, achievable and realistic, and that we have a reasonable timetable on those things.

Based on your experience in Quebec, what would be reasonable goals that should be set out so we could see that the program is successful?

[Pierre Fortin]

My experience, too, comes partly from work in the field, because I spent 19 years with what we called "daycares" at that time, but that were child care services. In addition, my wife started an early childhood centre at Radio-Canada, where she was the big boss at the time.

Quebec's success derives precisely from the fact that we have developed a system of early childhood centres, the CPEs, that imposes a number of criteria on the process and structure of child care and requires private child care services and the CPEs to have parents with roots in the communities, who can give feedback, on their boards of directors...

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Fortin, I'll interrupt. I'm running out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The time has run out.

We only have one round, so I will move to Madame Bérubé.

The floor is yours for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who are here today.

Mr. Fortin, you said earlier that there are five main lessons to be learned. Quebec is a leader and model in this field. What would it be essential to add to Bill C-35?

[Pierre Fortin]

I don't really see anything. There is nothing essential lacking. If we wanted to make a compromise in connection with what Ms. Ferreri recommends, it would have to be clearly stated that private daycares could be allowed in the system on the condition that national and international quality standards be imposed and complied with, just as in the not-for-profit sector. That is the thing that could be incorporated.

I would like to add one comment. The word "Indigenous" is used 31 times in a five-page bill. I think it is important to help those communities. I have colleagues at the University of British Columbia and in the federal Department of Finance, Donna Feir and Jasmin Thomas, who have shown that Quebec's system has resulted in a much higher labour market participation rate among Inuit women in northern Quebec than in the three other Inuit regions elsewhere in Canada. That is part of the system's success, and establishing the system within the Indigenous communities is very important.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Ms. Mathieu, thank you for the clarification you provided concerning the distinctions between daycares and CPEs. It is important that the committee hear about that.

Knowing that the public data on Indigenous children that the government is working with are out of date, how can we make sure that Bill C-35 meets the needs of the First Nations and the Inuit and Métis?

[Dr. Sophie Mathieu]

That is really a tough question.

Because I am not part of those communities, I am absolutely not in a good position to answer. They are the ones who should be asked the question, rather than a white woman who has no Indigenous roots. I don't consider myself to be competent to answer that question.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Fine.

Mr. Fortin and Ms. Mathieu, who do you think should sit on the National Advisory Council on Early Learning and Child Care?

[Dr. Sophie Mathieu]

You are asking me who should sit on the Council, but the Council has already been formed and is in operation. I think the right people have been selected. If you want to see the list of members, it's available online.

I don't know whether that is a good answer to your question.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

That's good.

Do you think that Bill C-35 would achieve its targets in both rural and urban areas?

[Dr. Sophie Mathieu]

I don't know.

Mr. Fortin, do you have a comment?

[Pierre Fortin]

I'm not very familiar with the differences between rural and urban areas. In rural areas, the distance between where a person lives and where the child care service is located is sometimes very large. In those cases, it might be helpful to use family child care where the staff have received special training.

The staff who offer family child care have to be very familiar with the quality required. The service could then be offered for $8.85 a day, as it is in Quebec, or for $10 a day elsewhere, on the condition that families be offered that quality of service. It is very obvious that the situation in the rural areas in the Gaspé, in the Lower St. Lawrence or on the North Shore is not at all the same as in a city like Quebec City or Montreal.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Paragraph 7(1)(a) of the bill states a guiding principle for federal investments, which must aim to "facilitate access to early learning and child care programs and services—in particular those that are provided by public and not for profit child care providers—that meet standards set by provincial governments or Indigenous governing bodies."

Do you believe this is the right approach?

[Pierre Fortin]

Yes. What I like in that wording is the part that says that child care services of any nature are to be subject to provincial standards, especially quality standards.

It has been clearly shown that with more quality, children's development was better and more sustainable in the long term than their vulnerability. The first three or four years of life are extremely important, since children's brains are not finished developing at birth.

When a child doesn't have access to the open window provided by child care services, they remain vulnerable for the rest of their life, and it is very difficult and expensive to remedy that later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Bérubé.

Madame Gazan, you have six minutes to conclude today's meeting.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My first very brief question is for Madame Churcher.

I know there have been some concerns raised about not enough support for for-profit care. As you aware, on January 31, the federal government actually allocated 22,500 spaces for for-profit care providers in Alberta.

Did you lobby any federal ministers, government caucus or opposition MPs prior to this announcement being made? If so, whom did you lobby?

[Krystal Churcher]

We absolutely did lobby all levels, both provincial and federal. We have spoken with Michelle Ferreri multiple times on this issue. We have had our members and our board write letters directly to Minister Gould. I don't know who we may have missed.

The 22,500 spaces were an amazing win for private operators in Alberta. We're definitely very grateful to have those spaces, but they do come with a contingency of opting in to a cost control framework that will be imposed on private businesses—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay.

Because I have very limited time, would you be able to submit the names of those you lobbied to committee for those—

[Krystal Churcher]

Yes, absolutely.