Human Resources Committee on March 10th, 2023

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order. The clerk has advised me that we are good to go.

Welcome to meeting number 58 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, with some appearing remotely by Zoom and some attending in person in the room.

To ensure an orderly meeting, please direct all your questions or interventions through me, the chair, and wait until I recognize you by name. You have the choice of speaking in either official language of your choice. For those appearing remotely, there is translation on your Surface device. For those in the room, there is translation using the headphones. If there is an interruption in translation services, please get my attention; we'll suspend while it is worked out.

I would like to remind members that no screenshots or in-room shots are allowed while the committee is in hearings.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, February 3, 2023, the committee will continue its study of Bill C‑35, an act respecting early learning and child care in Canada.

I don't think technical tests to check the connectivity of witnesses have been completed yet. I would like to inform all members that witnesses appearing virtually today and members participating remotely are required to use a headset approved by the House of Commons. If they do not, they will not participate verbally in the meeting, but members will still have the right to vote in the meeting.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have Minister Gould, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. Welcome back again. You are a regular before this committee, Minister.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Michelle Lattimore, director general, federal secretariat; Cheri Reddin, director general, indigenous early learning; Jill Henry, director, policy, indigenous early learning; Kelly Nares, director, federal secretariat; and Christian Paradis, director, federal secretariat on early learning and child care.

Minister, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Minister of Families]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and committee, for having me to speak to Bill C‑35. As you mentioned, I've been here quite frequently recently, and it's always good to be back and spend time with my colleagues.

I am pleased to be accompanied today by the Director General of the Federal Secretariat on Early Learning and Child Care, Michelle Lattimore, the Director General of the Indigenous Early Learning and Child Care Secretariat, Cheri Reddin, as well as Directors Jill Henry, Kelly Nares and Christian Paradis.

Working with provinces, territories and indigenous partners, the Government of Canada is transforming the way child care is delivered.

As has been said many times, child care is not a luxury; it is a necessity. Parents should have the opportunity to build both a family and a career, and children deserve the best possible start in life.

As part of Budget 2021, the Government of Canada made a transformative investment to help give them that start—up to $30 billion over five years to build a Canada-wide early learning and child care system.

Since that announcement, we have signed agreements with each province and territory to reduce fees everywhere outside of Quebec, support the creation of high-quality child care spaces, and ensure early childhood educators are better supported.

The Canada-wide system is already benefiting tens of thousands of families. Fees for regulated child care have been reduced in all jurisdictions outside of Quebec and the Yukon, which already had affordable child care systems. This system is a critical step toward our goal to see on average $10-a-day child care across Canada by March 2026.

To ensure the success of the system, we are also working hard with provinces and territories to create 250,000 new full-time regulated and primarily not-for-profit child care spaces by the end of March 2026, as well as to attract, train and retain the best early childhood educators.

We have put Bill C-35 before the House to ensure future generations of families across Canada can continue benefitting from this system.

The proposed legislation reinforces the government's commitment to support provinces, territories and indigenous partners in building a Canada-wide system. It will ensure that federal funding will be sustained; it promises accountability; and it further underscores our commitment to human rights conventions, including the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act.

Bill C-35 is the result of comprehensive feedback from our partners and stakeholders. It is driven by shared interests, close partnerships and collaboration.

This proposed legislation respects provincial and territorial jurisdiction, and the vision and principles of both the 2017 multilateral early learning and child care framework that was developed with provinces and territories and the indigenous early learning and child care framework that was co-developed with indigenous partners.

With Bill C-35, provinces, territories, and Indigenous partners would benefit from the assurance of a sustained federal commitment to early learning and child care.

By enshrining our shared principles and vision into federal law, we would be building stability and predictability into the child care system.

Mr. Chair, our child care system is working everywhere in Canada, and more and more families are benefiting. This bill has been conceived to ensure that if it is passed as written, families will continue to benefit from these investments for generations to come.

Now we are pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

We will now open the floor to questions, beginning with Madam Ferreri for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. We know how important child care is for parents across this country, and in particular we know how important access to child care is for all families.

We heard from Michelle Lattimore this past week that the “framework sets the foundation for a shared long-term vision for early learning in child care, guided by the agreed-upon principles of quality, accessibility, affordability, flexibility and inclusivity.”

However, when I asked Ms. Lattimore about the wait-lists in Canada, there had been no data collected to know that number. It is odd to have a framework to solve a problem without knowing the numbers to start with.

Also, when MP Falk asked about consultation, Ms. Lattimore said that they “were seeking a response on the legislation and the discussion guide outlining what [they] expected to see in the legislation.” She said, “Specific responses on challenges that are being faced by rural or remote families in accessing child care have not been specifically addressed”.

The report does not break down what we heard from the perspective of not-for-profit or for-profit providers. Minister, if the federal government has no purview under the licencing and agrees that there is a place for all forms of child care, that is up to the individual provinces to decide. Why is there a specific call-out in the guiding principles, yet there's the contradiction that you're only primarily focusing on not-for-profit and public providers? If the goal is quality, accessibility, flexibility and inclusivity, why leave out a sector in the vision of child care that provides care for so many kids across the country?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

I think it's important to clarify that so long as they're a licensed provider, they're included in the child care agreement signed with provinces and territories. It doesn't distinguish between existing for-profit and not-for-profit providers. In fact, the not-for-profit umbrella includes home care, which could be private or not-for-profit, so in fact no one is actually left out in this system.

When it comes to wait-lists, most provinces and territories don't have a good understanding. Part of the challenge is that it has been an ad hoc system for so long. You put your name on multiple wait-lists and see where you're going to be able to get a spot. I did this myself, as a parent. I've heard from countless people across the country who have done the same thing. Day cares and centres say they don't have a good, accurate sense, because they might have 60 or 100 families on their wait-list, but half of those could be on other wait-lists as well.

We know that there is a demand and there is a need in urban, rural and remote communities. All of that is contemplated within the multilateral frameworks.

In fact, I was in Saskatchewan just on Monday. Since signing the agreement, the Government of Saskatchewan has announced 4,000 new spaces, many of which are in rural and remote communities.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you for that, Minister.

I appreciate what you're saying, but it's just not adding up. If the focus is for all, why wouldn't you have that in the language of the bill? Why do you say “primarily” not-for-profit and public? Why not just say “all” child care? Why is that language so exclusive?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I think you're going to be hearing from Pierre Fortin after me, who has done exceptional research on child care, particularly in Quebec and in the CPE, the Centres de la petite enfance. He has some pretty extraordinary research that demonstrates just how significant the quality gap is with regard to for-profit and not-for-profit providers.

We also recognize that, as this is being funded through public dollars, we want to ensure that any investment that we're making is going directly back into the provision of child care. There is considerable research that demonstrates that there is higher quality, usually, within the not-for-profit system. It doesn't mean there aren't excellent for-profit providers, and that's why we've grandfathered all existing licensed spaces into the agreement.

Of course, it's an opt-in decision within each province or territory, but we've seen incredible take-up across the country—between 95% and 98%, depending on the province or territory—of all licensed providers, irrespective of the type of child care that they are providing.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

You said in your opening remarks that access to child care is a necessity and you said families have the right to build a family.

What I would ask you, in listening to hundreds, or thousands actually, because there are Facebook groups of thousands of families who can't access child care right now.... One woman who wrote to me has been on a wait-list since she was seven weeks pregnant. Her child is now 14 months old, and she says there is no mother's right to access. She has given up on having any more children.

Given your words in your opening remarks saying that parents should have the right to build a family, what do you say to people like Leanne who say that this agreement does not give parents choice? She says it gives all the control to the operators and she has chosen not to build a family because of this agreement.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I would say that's exactly why these agreements are in place. Until we had these agreements, there often wasn't a choice because it was either too expensive or there wasn't a space available.

As I said in my last answer to you, we know that space creation is really important. It's why we've contemplated building 250,000 additional spaces across the country. It's so we can make sure that people like Leanne and families who want to have children but maybe can't because of affordability or because they don't have access to reliable child care are going to have that.

This agreement changes the nature of how child care is delivered in this country in a way that is going to have transformational impacts on families, on women and on the economy.

We don't have to look far. We can look at the experience of Quebec, which, 25 years ago, brought in universal, affordable, available child care.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Do you know the current wait-list in Quebec to access child care?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Ferreri, your time has gone over.

We'll have Mr. Coteau for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I know that for decades governments, provincially and federally, have been looking for ways to strengthen child care, and many Canadians have aspired to the dream of a universal child care program. To me, the fact that we're here at this point is just incredible. I know that in my community of Don Valley East and throughout the Don Mills corridor, this is a very popular program. I'm happy that we're at this stage.

Can you talk about the economic benefits of such a program, not just to families but also to people who are involved in the sector and work in the sector?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I can, with pleasure.

Child care is one of those amazing policies that is smart social and economic policy. In fact, if you look at the Quebec experience, they have received more in increased revenue from income taxes than they spend on the program, so the return on investment for the broader society is astonishing.

Part of that is because parents with young children, predominantly women, can stay in or re-enter the workforce. Quebec has one of the highest rates of women with children under the age of four who are working. That has long-term impacts and financial benefits, both to the woman—who has financial autonomy and sovereignty over her finances and doesn't have that gap of a number of years when she's not earning, if that's her choice—as well to the family, because there can be greater income at a time when they're spending the most when they have a small child.

For every dollar invested in child care, we see a $1.50 to $2.80 return to the broader economy. The estimates are that when this child care program is fully implemented within the next three or four years, we're going to see billions of dollars returned to the economy, and I think it's a 2% increase to GDP.

It's huge. This is such a smart investment we can be making, because it has such positive benefits, not just economically but also socially.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I know the bill calls for the creation of the national advisory council. It says that there would be between 10 to 18 members within that council and that it would strive to find some diversity and balance.

Can you talk a bit about how you're going to approach this? What's in the works so far, and when can we expect that council to be in full operation?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

The council is in full operation. It was announced in November. We have members from all across Canada in every province and almost every territory, and a range of perspectives from academia and researchers, providers, educators and parents.

We have also tried to make sure that there is diversity regionally and in their backgrounds. There are parents with children with special needs and official language minority communities to get a good perspective from across the country. Of course, when you have 12 to 18 members on a council, you can't have every single voice represented, but I think we have done a fairly good job of making sure we have that diversity.

I have had the occasion to meet with them twice, and I have to say that it's a pretty phenomenal group of individuals who care passionately about making child care successful in this country.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I know that a significant part of the investment is going to indigenous communities. I think it's just under $2 billion over five years, if memory serves me correctly.

One of the goals of Bill C-35 is to put in place a long-term strategy for funding. Can you explain how the mechanics of that would work? If the bill does go forward and Bill C-35 is in full operation, how would you envision that long-term funding being structured?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Bill C-35 is complementary to the multilateral framework and the bilateral agreements we have through the Canada-wide early learning and child care initiative. We have signed 13 bilateral agreements with provinces and territories. The one with Quebec is asymmetrical, because Quebec is much further ahead in this regard than the rest of the country. In fact, they are the pioneers in Canada.

The funding arrangements, then, are complementary. We have signed these agreements on five-year terms so that we can make sure that we are setting out objectives, and provinces and territories can respond with action plans determining and illustrating how they are going to spend that money. Then Bill C-35commits the federal government to being a long-term funding partner.

I don't think it's appropriate for Bill C-35 to determine what the amount of money is, because I think we need to continue to have this as an evergreen process. I think what's really important is that it says that the federal government is committed to funding child care and that we are going to be there for the long term.

This is in addition to the budget 2021 decision that provided ongoing funding beyond the five-year agreements of up to $9 billion a year in perpetuity.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Ms. Bérubé, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome the Minister and the witnesses who are here with us.

Minister, we can agree that Bill C-303, which was introduced by the NDP in 2006, is the ancestor of Bill C-35, with a few differences. However, one of those differences concerns me: Bill C-35 makes no mention of an exemption for Quebec, although we are well aware that Quebec is a forerunner and a leader in the area of early childhood and daycares, as you yourself have said.

It has now been over 25 years since the Government of Quebec adopted a family policy that led to the creation of a network of affordable early childhood education services that help to create better living conditions and a better balance between parenting and work responsibilities for millions of families. Given that fact, do you believe it would be useful to include a clause in Bill C-35to permit Quebec to withdraw from this program, unconditionally and with full compensation, to avoid negotiations and arguments between the federal and provincial governments every five years?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Bérubé. I would also like to welcome you to the committee.

This is not something we have heard from the Government of Quebec. There were no arguments during negotiation of the agreement, and I don't think there will be in the future. We have an excellent relationship with the Government of Quebec when it comes to this agreement, which, as you know, is asymmetrical. What the government of Quebec and the provincial and territorial governments like about this bill is that it focuses on the role of the federal government and does not infringe on areas under the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories. That is important to note. We cannot legislate in their fields.

The provision that is most important for the provinces and territories is the one that provides that the federal government is committed to maintaining long-term funding for early learning and child care programs and services.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

What is there in this bill that would avoid another conflict between Quebec and Ottawa when the current agreement expires?

As well, why was clause 4 of Bill C-303, which provided an exemption for Quebec, not retained and incorporated into Bill C-35?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

As I mentioned, Bill C-35 focuses on the work of the federal government and guarantees its long-term financial commitment for child care, a commitment that did not exist before Budget 2021. Before this, we had agreements with the provinces and territories. For example, in 2017, my colleague, Health Minister Duclos, negotiated a framework with all of the provinces and territories on this subject. In the case of the current bill, however, we are focusing on the work of the federal government.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

At the last meeting, the officials stated that this bill mainly dealt with the federal framework and it was therefore not necessary to include Quebec's right to withdraw from the program with full compensation.

Quebec's current agreement is for five years. What guarantee does Quebec have that in the next round of negotiations, the federal government will not impose standards and obligations?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

The purpose of Bill C-35 is to guide the federal government so that subsequent governments, whether or not they are Liberal, as I hope they will be, are guided by these principles and objectives when they negotiate with the provinces and territories.

Of course, Quebec is already a leader when it comes to these principles and objectives, as you say. Ultimately, what we want to do is improve child care services in the rest of Canada so they are at the same level as the services in Quebec. Quebec has also committed to creating 30,000 new child care spaces under the agreement and we are going to maintain a very positive relationship with Quebec.

As well, I have to say that at the federal-provincial meetings, it was very helpful to have access to Quebec's experience, through my former counterpart, who was very generous in this regard, in fact. This enabled the provinces and territories to learn about Quebec's experience.