Human Resources Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number six of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, and the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic, I assume that all members of the committee are aware of the COVID rules, and I expect them to respect them.

Members may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French audio. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair, for those joining virtually. For members in the room, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When you're speaking, your mike should be on. I will remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

The committee will now proceed to the consideration of matters related to committee business. I'm going to give you a quick update.

On Monday, the committee adopted a motion inviting the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Seniors and the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion to appear before the committee in view of their ministerial mandate letters prior to Friday, February 18, 2022. I have received confirmation that all five ministers have accepted the committee's invitation and will be appearing on the following days.

On Thursday, February 10 at 4:30 p.m., we will have Minister Gould.

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 11:00 a.m., we will have Minister Hussen, and at 12:00 p.m., we will have Minister Khera.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022, 3:30 p.m., we will have Minister O'Regan, and at 4:30 p.m., we will have Minister Qualtrough.

As per the motion adopted on Monday, the committee is meeting to consider the future work of the committee and prioritize studies. If members are agreeable, I would suggest that we first consider any notices of motion before the committee. I can recognize members to move their motions for debate. Once the motions have been dispensed, the selected studies can then be prioritized.

Are members agreeable to the plan?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I would like to advise the committee that I would like to set 10 minutes aside before the conclusion to discuss the Centennial Flame bursary. The clerk will brief us on that.

I would also like to receive direction from the committee as to the agenda of the meeting on Monday, February 7, 2022, and the first hour of the meeting on Thursday, February 10, 2022.

The floor is now open and I recognize Madam Zarrillo.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's nice to see you for the first time in 2022—in person, I mean. We need more of that.

Committee members have brought a robust group of motions to address concerns in their ridings and across Canada. I'm very happy to see all of the notices of motion today.

I have three myself. I have one that addresses income support for persons with disabilities, one that addresses indigenous housing, and a third that addresses labour shortages, which are very important to this committee, from the motions that I've seen.

It's the motion around the labour shortages that I will move now, with a focus on the care economy, which includes personal support workers, care aides and medical professionals, including veterinarians and child care workers. They have all been on the front lines of care during this pandemic.

Through the chair, the motion reads:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of the labour shortages and workers' conditions within the care economy, including healthcare workers, personal support workers, and childcare workers who have been on the front lines of COVID-19, and examine how the government, in collaboration with the provinces and territories, should implement long-term investments in the care economy; that the government, in collaboration with the provinces and territories, improve credential recognition for Canadians and permanent residents who have been trained abroad; that the committee invite the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, experts and departmental officials to testify; that the committee hold at least five meetings; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

We will now go to Madame Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members.

I'm glad to be here and to have heard your comments on our last motion, which sought to invite the ministers to appear before the committee. The hope was that we could make time in the committee's schedule given their availability. I think it's very important in order for the committee to undertake work going forward and achieve its goals.

I put four motions on notice: one on the labour shortage, one on the study on seniors, one on the temporary foreign worker program, and one on contract flipping in the aerospace sector.

I would like to move the motion on the labour shortage study, which I think the committee should prioritize. In fact, looking at the motions put forward by all four parties, I can see that we each have a motion addressing the labour shortage. No doubt, we'll be able to reach a consensus on that front. I hope the study will be given priority.

The motion reads as follows:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee...

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

My apologies. I was moving my motion, as per the chair's instruction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot, there is already a motion on the floor by Madam Zarrillo.

I would ask everybody to direct their comments to the motion currently on the floor from Madam Zarrillo.

Mr. Collins, did you have your hand up to speak?

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to speak to Madam Zarrillo's motion; it is a good one.

As Madame Chabot just referenced—

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Would it be possible to have the members participating virtually lower their hands, or unclick the raise hand feature, once they have spoken? It's quite tough to keep track of the speaking list of members participating virtually. I noticed that Ms. Chabot tends to keep her raise hand feature clicked, so it's hard to tell when she raised her hand.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I'll lower my hand. If you tell us we can comment on the motion that was put forward, I will raise it again.

I should point out that I can't tell when members participating in person are ahead of me on the speaking list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Yes, I would ask that once you're recognized and when you conclude, lower your hand so that it's clear at each change.

We're in discussion and debate on the motion moved by Madam Zarrillo.

Mr. Collins.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Through you to Madame Zarillo, it's a terrific motion. As was noted earlier, a number of motions have been presented to the committee that speak to labour shortages. I'm certainly supportive of what's in front of us here, but I wonder if there was an opportunity for some massaging of the language. If you would provide me an opportunity to present an amendment, I'd like to put it to the committee for members' consideration.

I'll read it out. If you need me to read it again, I'm certainly willing to do so. It is as follows: “That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of the labour shortages and workers' conditions within the care economy, including healthcare workers, personal support workers and child care workers who have been on the front lines of COVID-19, and examine how the government, in collaboration with the provinces and territories, could improve working conditions in the care economy; that the committee proceed to an overview of the impact of the labour shortages in the Canadian workforce in the first meeting of the study; that the committee invite the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability and Inclusion, experts, and departmental officials to testify; that the committee hold at least six meetings; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.”

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if you have all of that, or whether the clerk needs anything from me in that regard.

Essentially, it's changing the language in the middle of the motion and adding another meeting to the study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Currently we have an amendment on the floor. The debate will now focus on the amendment to the motion by Madam Zarillo.

I will ask the clerk to circulate it. Do you have the exact text of the amendment?

While we're doing that, I want to outline, for those who are virtual, who is in the room. There's Madam Kusie, Mr. Ruff and Madam Zarillo. We have Mr. Morrice joining from the Green Party. Mr. Collins and Madame Ferrada are also in the committee room.

Committee members, you have the amendment by Mr. Collins.

Madam Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

We are in support of the amendment. We appreciate Mr. Collins's perspective that this definitely is a broad topic as brought forward by Madam Zarillo. In fact, we are so in accordance with Mr. Collins's suggestion of the language change and changing it from five meetings to six that we would like to expand the scope.

I'm not sure, Clerk, if I would do that with an amendment to the amendment, or if we vote on this amendment. Probably we would vote on this amendment and then I would suggest another amendment to the main motion as amended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Kusie.

Madame Chabot, go ahead on the amendment.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

If I understand the intent of the amendment correctly, the idea is to expand the scope of the study in relation to the labour market impacts. If I could get the text of the amendment in French, it would be appreciated, although I realize it's not required.

May I speak to the motion itself, specifically the first part?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You're speaking on the amendment, Madame Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

The amendment is based on a motion, the first part of which, I fundamentally disagree with. The motion addresses the study of the labour shortages and workers' conditions within the care economy in relation to health care workers, personal support workers and child care workers.

As everyone knows, health care workers and child care workers have been on the front lines since the pandemic began. They deserve our utmost respect, and I am concerned about what happens to them. In my view, though, responsibility for this study doesn't rest with the federal government. Labour shortages in the health care and child care sectors, whether we are talking about personal support workers or nurses, are entirely the responsibility of the provinces. It's not the role of the federal government to study such issues.

I could speak at length about the situation in Quebec. We now have action plans addressing the labour shortage. The whole issue comes down to the working conditions that have been negotiated and broader public service planning, areas where the federal government has no business telling the provinces what to do. Every province has its own jurisdiction when it comes to issues affecting workers, and I am not in favour of a study on a labour shortage in a sector that is not the federal government's responsibility.

I cannot support the amendment because it is based on a motion that deals specifically with the care economy. I urge the committee members to consider the full impact of this motion. I don't think we would be helping to make any headway by studying matters beyond our purview, in other words, the conditions of workers in the provinces' care economies. That is not at all our job. Child care systems vary from province to province, as do health care delivery models. In Quebec, the issue revolves around attracting and retaining workers, a matter that is largely negotiated by sector stakeholders, major labour unions and the health ministry. Who knows where the study would lead us—a study that is wholly outside our domain. It is clearly the domain of Quebec.

I realize the labour shortage is hurting major sectors and businesses, as evidenced by a study from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and today's report from the Ontario Chamber of Commerce. We all know the transportation and food service industries have been hit hard, among others. Our goal should be to conduct an impact study to determine how Canada's labour shortage in major sectors is affecting the Canadian economy. That is the issue we should be studying, not matters that fall entirely within provincial jurisdiction.

I cannot support this amendment because it flows from a motion I fundamentally disagree with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

The amendment is admissible and it's within the scope of the committee. Is there any further discussion?

Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I would say that this is a very good motion. Contrary to the last member's statement around provincial-federal jurisdiction, there is no question that labour shortages are impacted, or labour in general is impacted by federal policy, from immigration to skilled development to transfer payments.

There's a huge opportunity for us to look at the main motion as something we as policy-makers can develop to contribute to better coordination federally but also interprovincially. We can do that by working in partnership with the provinces to really put in place strategies that meet their needs from an immigration and skills development perspective.

I think it's a good motion for us to support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Now Mr. Van Bynen, you have the floor.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

In the previous sitting of the House, I had the privilege of sitting on the HESA committee, the health care committee, along with Mr. Jeneroux. The one thing we discovered throughout this pandemic is how integrated the health care system is. Those are delivery points, not from a national point of view but from a provincial, regional and municipal point of view. There's a very integrated dynamic that needs to be considered as we go forward.

In addition to that, there are a number of national studies being undertaken in terms of health care. This motion touches on some of the very fundamental dynamics of what we are trying to accomplish in terms of making this a safer and healthier place to live. I think this is quite appropriate, and I will be supporting the motion and the amendment.