Human Resources Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number seven of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in the hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, and the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and the recommendations from health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated. They must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer at the room entrance.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few of the rules. Members may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French audio. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or to alert the chair. For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I will remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

The committee will now proceed to the consideration of matters related to committee business. The floor is now open.

I call on Mr. Long and then Madame Chabot.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair, and good morning to my colleagues, my friends. Hopefully, everybody had a restful weekend.

Chair, I'd like to present a motion, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Long, you have the floor.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

It is as follows: “That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study on a) the financial challenges that persons with disabilities face and how a benefit administered by the federal government, similar to the guaranteed income supplement for seniors, would reduce poverty among working age Canadians with disabilities; b) the challenges persons with disabilities encounter when dealing with the federal government, how the government can improve access to federal programs and services for persons with disabilities and ensure that disability inclusion is considered in all government programs, policies and services; c) barriers to employment—”

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I have Madame Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order because I introduced a motion at the end of our proceedings on Thursday and because we adjourned that meeting on the understanding that we would resume proceedings starting with that motion. Consequently, I don't understand how another motion besides mine can be introduced.

I ask that we be able to finish our discussion and consideration of my motion. Then Mr. Long can present the motion he wants to introduce. I have a proper point of order because we agreed that debate would resume at the start of this meeting on the motion that I had introduced and that is still under consideration.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, if I might, I think the last meeting was adjourned, not suspended, and I believe that Madame Chabot would have to move that motion again, if I'm correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Mr. Long is correct. I was waiting to—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I challenge that decision.

Yes, we adjourned the meeting, but a motion was nevertheless under consideration at the end of that meeting.

You clearly said we would resume debate where we had left off.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

The adjournment adjourned all debate that was currently on the floor, but you have the option of returning to it when I call on you after Mr. Long.

Mr. Ruff.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

On the same point of order, I agree with Ms. Chabot. I'm not disagreeing with Mr. Long that procedurally what you've done is quite legitimate. When we agreed as a committee to adjourn here last Thursday or Friday, whatever day it was, it was under the understanding that we were going to come back and the first order of business was going to be Ms. Chabot's business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Ruff.

Ms. Chabot, because I've recognized you to follow Mr. Long, I will allow Mr. Long to proceed with his motion and then I will call on you. Then the floor will be yours to continue debate of your choice, Ms. Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I nevertheless have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

With all due respect, I don't think this procedure is conducive to democratic process in our committee. You know perfectly well that, if you allow Mr. Long to introduce his motion, discussion will then proceed on it, whereas we very clearly agreed that we would begin with mine.

I think we should read the minutes from time to time and take what committee members have to say into consideration. Even though we adjourned our proceedings because the meeting had ended at 5:30 p.m., as the committee schedule provides, we were supposed to resume starting with a duly introduced motion.

Furthermore, if you allowed me to continue on the motion, you would see that that we could readily accept what followed.

I don't know by what mechanism we can proceed to a vote on a point of order, but I'd like us to vote on the fact that I am challenging the way we're proceeding today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We're in discussion on Mr. Long's motion, which has already been moved to the floor. He was recognized.

Ms. Ferrada.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Would it be possible to request unanimous consent of the members of this committee to resume the debate that Ms. Chabot began during the last meeting so she can inform the members that she wishes to continue on that motion and how she wishes to do so?

I think that's where we stood at our last meeting. If we had unanimous consent, we could give her the floor.

Would the clerk please explain the procedure?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The committee chooses its own destiny. Ms. Chabot has challenged the direction. I'm in the hands of the committee.

I'll call for a vote on Ms. Chabot's motion. You've heard the motion.

Madam Clerk, just so everybody is clear on the direction we're going, would you advise the committee?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Danielle Widmer]

Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, committee.

I recognize Madame Chabot.

You have the floor, Madame.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and colleagues.

Before debating my motion on the temporary foreign worker program, I'd like to review some facts that may be discussed at future committee meetings.

First, there's a procedural matter. You're probably abiding by the rules, Mr. Chair, but, with all due respect, I noticed that, before the meeting had even started—you know this is a hybrid meeting—Mr. Long's hand was raised, whereas the meeting hadn't yet begun. I consider that practice undemocratic. It's like a game show where you have to hit the button first. It's also unclear how it would work in a hybrid format. The use of the raise hand feature before the meeting has even started could be challenged. That's why I raised my hand at the start.

When should we raise our hand? I think it should be at the start of the meeting, but then there would be a race to raise hands first. You also don't necessarily see it in hybrid mode.

Now I'll turn directly to my motion. As you know, I introduced a motion regarding a study on the effectiveness of labour market impact studies, or LMIAs, and the temporary foreign worker program. Mr. Long noted for our information that the committee had previously conducted an extensive study on that topic in 2016. I don't know whether you did it, but I took the time to read the entire study and found that it contained points that would justify me in maintaining my motion because many promising recommendations may not have been implemented and we have two dissenting reports at this time.

However, in view of all the work we have to do in this committee, I'd be prepared to withdraw my motion concerning the study of that program if I had the unanimous consent of members of this committee. Not because it wouldn't be prudent to examine those matters—the LMIA process and the temporary foreign worker program—but because we've previously adopted motions to invite ministers regarding their mandate letters and to complete the seniors study. There also appeared to be a consensus on the labour shortage study, even though I know we'll have a subcommittee to address priorities. We've also added an important question on affordable, social and community housing.

In short, I think it wise that we conduct an extensive study on the temporary foreign worker program, but I'm prepared for the moment to withdraw my motion and I'm seeking unanimous consent to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The committee has heard the position of Madame Chabot. Do you want to move to considering her request, or is there further debate?

Mr. Long, your hand is up.

Madame Chabot, your hand is up as well. I do not hear any more discussion, so I will ask if there is consensus on Madame Chabot's request to withdraw. I see thumbs up.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

(Motion withdrawn)

Madame Chabot, the committee has consented to your request.

Just on the point that was made, to clarify for the committee, in future meetings, when I hit the gavel signifying that the meeting is called to order, I will be looking. If there are hands up on the screen or in the room prior to my hitting the gavel, I will discount those. I will wait until I hit the gavel and call the meeting to order to recognize the speaking order.

Thank you, committee.

Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thanks to Ms. Chabot for going back and pulling that report on temporary foreign workers that we did previously, and for withdrawing her motion.

Also, just for the record, sometimes when I get on—I've done it in the past and I know Ms. Chabot has done it also—I click to put my hand up first. I'm certainly not the only one who puts their hand up before the gavel drops. I could certainly reference many, many times.

Anyway, moving on, I would like to introduce this motion. I assume I need to reread it, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

That's correct, Mr. Long.