Evidence of meeting #72 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ray Sullivan  Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association
Christian Szpilfogel  Chief Investment Officer, Aliferous
Michael Brooks  Chief Executive Officer, Real Property Association of Canada
Tim Richter  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness
John Dickie  President, Canadian Federation of Apartment Associations

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)) Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, the clerk has advised me that we have a quorum and that those appearing virtually have been tested for sound quality, so I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 72 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and virtually using Zoom. To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to advise you to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those appearing virtually, please use the “raise hand” icon at the bottom of your screen. As well, you have the option of choosing to speak in the official language of your choice. If interpretation is interrupted, please get my attention. We will suspend while that is being corrected.

As well, please remember that no screenshots of today's meeting shall be taken while it is in progress.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee will resume its study on the financialization of housing.

Again, for the witnesses appearing virtually, sound quality has been checked and we're okay to go.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions. I would ask witnesses to please stay as close to the five minutes as possible.

Appearing in the first hour is Christian Szpilfogel, chief investment officer at Aliferous; Ray Sullivan, executive director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association; and Michael Brooks, chief executive officer, Real Property Association of Canada.

We will begin with Mr. Sullivan for five minutes, please.

3:30 p.m.

Ray Sullivan Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association

Thank you very much, Chair Morrissey. Hello, bonjour, kwe, to everyone listening and attending.

The Canadian Housing and Renewal Association is the national membership-based association representing non-profit and affordable housing. My name is Ray Sullivan. I'm the executive director. Our members are non-profit and co-op housing providers, advocacy organizations, rental associations and provincial and municipal governments. We're trying to provoke system-wide action toward the right to housing by all, and our members have the expertise to get that done.

I want to focus my comments on one important solution that will blunt the impacts of financialized rental markets, and that is supporting non-profits and co-operatives in purchasing existing rental properties, preserving affordable rents and protecting those homes. As I build to that, there are two key things that I want us to be very aware of.

The first is that there is one single interconnected housing market. Whether it's new ownership, the resale market, high-end rentals, older affordable market rentals or for-profit rooming houses, they're all part of the same housing market. What happens to one link in that chain rattles all of the other links too. For low- and modest-income people, who are the most economically vulnerable, if that chain rattles enough, they find themselves without a home at all, or paying more than half of their income on rent every month and at risk of losing their home.

The second thing I want us to be aware of is that there's a business model at play here that is causing significant harm. I want to break that down a little bit further.

First, rental properties are value-based on their cash flow. This is different from purchasing your own home. Picture two identical small apartment buildings side by side. They're identical in every single way except that one of them has higher rents, probably because most of its tenants are new, and one of them has lower rents, probably because most of its tenants have been there for a long time. The property that has higher rents, which generates a higher net rental income, is worth more on the market than the one with lower rents, even though they're otherwise identical.

It's not that complicated. If you're buying your rental property, you want to look for something with low rents—rents below full market value—because that gives you the greatest capacity to raise the rental income and thereby raise the value of your real estate asset. You can sell that asset for much more than you paid for it. It's simple enough.

Now, markets adapt quickly. The rental real estate market knows that those properties with lower rents often mean longer-standing tenants. Those units can be flipped over and rental income can be increased. What happens is that the market values the property based on the potential rents, the inflated rents, rather than the actual rents. This is a cycle that inflates property values, and that impacts the whole housing market.

What does this mean for the people living there? It means that if you've been living there for a long time, paying a more modest rent, you're a problem for that new property owner. You're getting in the way of the owner growing their asset value or generating the rental income to justify what they just paid for. When I think of this, I think of my grandmother, who rented the same apartment in Montreal with her sisters for about 40 years. Here we have, increasingly, a business model in rental housing that wants grandma out of there. This is the cycle that sees grandma's affordable rent as an obstacle.

The things that we need more of, housing security and stability and affordable market rents, are put at risk by this business model. We see this clearly in any examination of the affordable housing crisis. There's a massive loss of homes that rent at levels that are affordable to moderate-income and low-income households.

There's a spike in average rents, in fact, with year-over-year increases in available rents in the double digits right across the country, which are far outstripping the growth in incomes. This is leading to a much higher level of housing precarity and homelessness, and it's an obstacle to households entering the ownership market. It puts our immigration targets at risk. It harms our economy and our productivity. This is the cycle that is fuelled by financialization.

How do we interrupt the cycle of financialization? Relative to other OECD countries, Canada has a very small supply of non-profit and co-op housing. Thirty years ago, community housing represented 6% or 7% of the overall housing supply. Today, it represents half of that, about 3% or 4%.

Of course, when we're talking about community housing, the objective and mission of these organizations is not to increase the market value of their assets. It's to provide secure affordable housing. The purpose is to make sure that grandma and her sisters have a stable affordable home for as long as they want it.

A good supply of community housing stabilizes the rental market and ensures a supply of rental housing that is affordable to people with low and middle incomes. Let's talk about moving rental housing properties from column A to column B—from a business model where grandma's affordable rent is a problem to the one where grandma's affordable rent is the very purpose and objective of what we're trying to achieve.

Supporting non-profits and co-operatives to purchase existing rental properties and preserve modest rents is definancialization at work. This isn't a new thing.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Could you come to a conclusion, please?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association

Ray Sullivan

I'm wrapping up very quickly.

Decades ago, government community housing programs supported organizations to purchase existing rental properties and operate them as community housing. The national housing strategy includes no such program, and we have an opportunity to fix that. It's faster, brings fewer risks and costs less than new construction.

Don't get me wrong: We need to do both, but I'm calling on the federal government to work with the community housing sector to create an acquisition and preservation strategy for existing low-end-of-market rental housing properties.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

We'll now go to Mr. Szpilfogel for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Christian Szpilfogel Chief Investment Officer, Aliferous

Good afternoon.

I'm a director of the Eastern Ontario Landlord Organization, or EOLO, which was founded in 1990. EOLO represents rental housing providers of all sizes that, together, own and operate more than 40,000 rental units in the city of Ottawa.

EOLO is a member of the Canadian Federation of Apartment Associations, or CFAA. I understand that John Dickie, the president of CFAA, will be speaking on the next witness panel. Mr. Dickie provided me a copy of the CFAA's brief, which was made jointly with the Federation of Rental-housing Providers of Ontario, or FRPO.

I'm also the vice-president of the Ottawa Real Estate Investors Organization, or OREIO, which was established in 2002. It consists of small-scale real estate investors and people who provide expertise and services to them.

Both from both my own rental holdings and small developments, and from OREIO colleagues, I'm familiar with the issues facing small-scale landlords and developers. I, and many of my colleagues, develop and operate rental housing through small corporations, which is very common, even for relatively small investors and rental housing providers.

I agree with CFAA that the reason market rents are rising is that supply has lagged behind the growth in the population and in rental demand. That is largely because of excessive government charges and taxes that raise the cost of new housing development and also because of delays in approving new construction. I have experienced that myself in a number of developments, as have my colleagues.

CMHC recently estimated that Canada needs to increase the total housing supply by 3.5 million dwellings by 2030. That would be twice the recent annual new supply. That strongly suggests that small investors, REITs and corporations of all sizes should be encouraged to provide more rental housing rather than facing more or higher taxes and restrictions, which tend to discourage entry into any market and thus tend to decrease the amount of rental housing supply from what it would be under the current rules.

The size and sophistication of rental housing providers varies greatly, but virtually all private rental housing providers want to earn a reasonable net income and raise the value of their buildings. We do that by providing good value for money and efficiently managing costs.

Rental housing providers of all sizes seek to operate buildings at the optimum level of service and cost. That includes improving rental buildings to meet higher environmental and accessibility standards, and modernizing units when renters' demand for modernized units makes that productive.

If tax rules or CMHC mortgage rules are changed against rental developers, I would expect a flight of capital, both among large developers and small. I already see small-scale Canadian investors who used to develop in Canada now investing in American states that are more development friendly. They look for locations with growing rental demand, fast approvals, modest government charges and no rent control. In fact, there has already been a significant increase in the demand by Canadian investors for education on investing in U.S. real estate.

Regulating against financialization and seeking to limit REITs and other for-profit rental housing providers would be counterproductive. It would reduce investment in building new rental housing and in modernizing aging rental stock. In a very short time, such restrictions would reduce rental supply and rental availability and drive up market rents. Indeed, we have seen this in the past.

I urge you to recommend against restrictions on REITs or corporations, big and small, and against new tax rules seeking to influence behaviour, especially in areas of provincial jurisdiction like rental laws.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Szpilfogel.

Mr. Brooks, you have five minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Michael Brooks Chief Executive Officer, Real Property Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Michael Brooks and I'm the chief executive of REALPAC. I'm a career lawyer, having spent 30-plus years doing real estate transactions with a private firm and 26 years running REALPAC.

REALPAC is a 53-year-old national trade association, representing institutional and public real estate companies from coast to coast in all asset classes and vehicle types, including pension funds, public and private corporations, trusts, commercial real estate funds and REITs. I’m with you today, obviously, to talk about purpose-built rentals and financialization for housing.

The economics of our sector continue to change every day. Nearly a third of households in Canada live in purpose-built rental accommodation. Higher housing prices alongside a growing young demographic and increased immigration—it was apparently 1.1 million people in 2022 and 2.7% of our population, the highest since 1957—have led to strong demand for rental accommodation in recent years, after a low in August 2020. In August 2020, the students were not here and our members were giving rent subsidies to fill their buildings up.

With rising costs to build and rapidly rising interest rates that are nearly doubling—or even tripling—the financing costs of new projects, the new purpose-built supply is rapidly diminishing and will likely continue to do so. In places like Toronto, the cost to build apartments is approaching $800 a square foot and, to build condos, north of $1,200 a square foot. In both of those cases, given higher interest rates, most new developments don’t pencil out.

Up to 30% of the cost of a new unit is from government fees, charges and taxes, including federal GST on the value of the building as soon as construction is completed. Meanwhile, higher operating costs, including much higher interest rates; spikes in construction costs and natural gas prices; increased taxes, fees and charges; and increased wages are putting pressure on owner operating costs. This puts upward pressure on rents, even before one talks about repairing, maintaining and upgrading old buildings to meet modern standards, fire codes and building codes, including, potentially, air-conditioning and decarbonization requirements.

We know Canada needs 3.5 million additional housing units by 2030 to restore affordability, according to CMHC. However, it sometimes takes up to five years to get housing approved in many cities in Canada. As many new projects are potentially shelved, this will be a challenging target.

Our sector requires capital to build and repair housing. These funds require a return on investment. Whether it's new capital for renovation or to build another building, a return on investment is required. Heavily taxing those dollars is counterproductive.

The purpose-built rental market is indeed a capital-intensive business, and continuing to attract private sector capital will be critical. REALPAC supports the right to adequate housing and is prepared to have conversations with everyone, of every political stripe—including our not-for-profit colleagues—about how to move this ball forward and maintain a state of good repair. We believe good repair and professional management are the ways forward.

We have proposed four ideas in our submission.

Rental support programs are absolutely necessary at all three levels of government. We support those continuing and, indeed, being enhanced. It's better to upgrade an older building and support the tenants left behind than to not repair it at all.

We need to secure new construction through a sustainable and competitive funding model, like the U.S. low-income housing tax credit program. Canadianize it and bring it to Canada.

We are thinking internally about an industry code of conduct. How does REALPAC set a high bar for everyone in our industry? That's something we could work on together.

Finally, we think we need to establish an industry advisory council to work more collaboratively with everyone in the federal government about real solutions that are practical and will work.

With that, I would say the private sector has the speed, scale and scope to solve these supply problems. We're 96% of the market. We need to be at the table with you all.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Brooks.

Before we begin, I want to welcome to our committee MP Hanley, MP Tolmie and our guest, MP Morrice.

With that, we'll begin the first round of questioning with Mr. Aitchison for six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the panellists for being here.

I want to start with Mr. Brooks. In your brief, you spoke about how in Canada there are six publicly traded residential REITs and those account for about 6% of the Canadian rental world. After about 30 years of operation, that's what they amount to. This is about 3% of the primary and secondary market for all rental accommodation in Canada. There's been a lot of talk about REITs around here. They've been described as bad actors and that kind of thing.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that. Knowing full well that there are bad players in every industry, can you talk a little bit more about REITs and why they are actually an important part of this mix?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Real Property Association of Canada

Michael Brooks

Thank you, through the chair, for the question, MP Aitchison.

REITs exist in 42 countries around the world and that number is growing. They're in every G7 country. They allow small investors to buy big-ticket real estate on the same basis that wealthy people can. It's the retail investor who is the winner in all of this. Many people invest in REITs for retirement income, for example. Big pension funds might invest in REITs because real estate is a good counterpoint to bonds and stocks. It's a good asset class, generally.

The REITs, I think, are among the best class of landlords in Canada. Why is that? They have access to capital. They can fix buildings up. They have tenant portals. They have professional management. They have reputations. They have ESG statements. They are amongst the best class of landlords in Canada. Australia is trying to attract a build-to-rent system. So is the U.K. The REITs are a very good example of a build-to-rent system in this country.

3:50 p.m.

Dr. Gaëlle Fedida

Thank you.

Further to that, you note that the not-for-profit sector is another important part of this mix. You're not suggesting for one second that there's not a role for not-for-profits or co-ops and that kind of thing to be a part of solving this problem.

3:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Real Property Association of Canada

Michael Brooks

I absolutely agree with that. The private sector can build market housing. We can dip a little bit into the affordable or deeply affordable space if we can make the pro formas work, but we need everything below that on the income scale to be handled by government partners and not-for-profit partners. We're happy to work with Ray Sullivan and Tim Richter and others in this space. There's room for everybody in solving this problem.

3:50 p.m.

Dr. Gaëlle Fedida

Thank you for that.

Turning to Mr. Szpilfogel now, I want to go back to something we heard from the recent national housing strategy report. On that, the chief economist from the CMHC said:

The reality in Canada is that about 95% of the rental market is provided by the private sector, so financialization is something that exists by design in our rental market. In an environment of a growing population and more demand for more rental units, we need more financialization in order to get more supply to meet the needs of a growing population.

Financialization is a dirty word around here, apparently.

Could you speak about that a little bit? Do you agree with that statement? Would you elaborate on what he's saying there?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Investment Officer, Aliferous

Christian Szpilfogel

I can't put words in his mouth, but what I see is that the private sector is absolutely key in terms of developing the scale we need. One of the pieces here, which Mr. Brooks just talked about, was the relative percentage of different categories of landlords. When we take a look at the total rental universe, which is roughly five million rental housing units, half of it is in the primary-market segment, as defined by CMHC, which is three units and up. Out of that, roughly half are provided by small landlords, small developers.

If we look at the secondary market, that's another two million. It's almost half, and that is predominantly from the small landlords, small investors. When we take a look at the overall market there, there are a lot of small players that could potentially be impacted by what is decided by the committee.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Excuse me, but the bells are ringing in the House. I do need unanimous consent. They are 30-minute bells, as you can see. To continue, I'm under—

3:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Okay. We will continue until.... What's the wish?

I was in a committee yesterday where all the members chose to vote from the committee room using the app. What's the wish of the committee?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We do have a little bit of time, so we can probably finish off on this and get one more round in. Then we can enter the chamber.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

You want the committee to suspend—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Yes, suspend so we can vote.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

—and come back. Okay. It can only move with unanimous consent.

We will continue then with Mr. Aitchison, and then we will go to Mr. Collins.

Go ahead, Ms. Ferrada.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Soraya Martinez Ferrada Liberal Hochelaga, QC

Can we just agree on the time? Usually it's 10 minutes before. Is that good? That's what the committee usually did before. Ten minutes is enough time to cross the street.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

We could do 15. Ten minutes is very.... We're on the fourth floor on Wellington. It's not like we're in West Block. That's a little bit more reasonable. Fifteen minutes, I think, would be more reasonable.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

We will try to get in the first round then.

Mr. Aitchison, you have a minute and a half.