Human Resources Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Zarrillo. We'll now go to Madame Kusie for five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Minister. I'm going to continue on the line of questioning that my colleague Madame Goodridge began on the day care initiative.

In my conversations with provincial counterparts, one great concern currently is not only the rate of inflation in the nation but the fact that fee increases are capped at 3% per year, while inflation is currently at 5% per year. This concern around the agreement certainly exists in my home province of Alberta. I'm just wondering how you anticipate provinces will deal with the rising operating costs when inflation is at 5% a year and you've capped the increase at 3% a year.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I'm very pleased that we signed a historic agreement with Alberta. That's $3.8 billion that is going to help Alberta families. In fact, we've already seen families in your province receive the 50% reduction in fees for licensed child care. That's fantastic news, and that's going to be a game-changer.

Of course, we remain in dialogue with provinces and territories. However, the 3% cap in fees is important. We don't want people profiting from public dollars when it comes to the provision of day care services. It is really important to ensure the good and effective use of public funds.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Perhaps you could expand on why you did not decide to have the fee increase cap reflect the current inflation rate. As I mentioned, entering these partnerships will leave operators holding the bag for the difference between the capped rate of 3% and whatever inflation continues to be. It doesn't really sound like you're coming from a place of good faith. You're saying that with this rate of inflation, whatever it might be, you don't have good faith that operators, the ones you're entrusting to implement these programs and take care of the nation's children, can provide for them under the capped 3% rate you've indicated.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

We are primarily concerned with ensuring that there is good use of public funds. As you're someone who's in the Conservative Party of Canada, I would imagine it's something that's very important for you as well.

We want to ensure that the funds we send to provinces and territories are going towards service provision, that they're going toward high-quality care, that they're going toward paying ECEs fair and appropriate wages. These are all things that are very important for us. We want to ensure that those funds are being put to good use.

We've worked very closely with the Government of Alberta. Of course we came to an agreement, an agreement that is good for Alberta and good for families in Alberta.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Unfortunately, Minister, I don't think your work is done as of yet with Alberta, as there still remains concern over the cost control framework. The agreement with Alberta, fortunately, unlike other provinces, allows for the expansion of these private spaces in cases that Alberta and the federal government have agreed on.

As I said, your work is not done. You still have to determine the cost control framework. Will you commit today to a thorough consultation, beginning with Alberta, to start on the cost control framework, please?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

We have really good agreements in place with provinces and territories right across the country. It is the same with Alberta, but the work continues with every province and territory. It's why we've put together an implementation committee for every province and territory.

We are doing something completely new here. We are building a Canada-wide system of early learning and child care. This is exciting. It is great news for families, and we know that we're going to have to continue to work. As I have shared with my counterpart in Alberta, with whom I have a great working relationship, we're going to continue to do that work together, because we want to see this be a success no matter where it is in the country.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Minister, I'm glad to hear that, and let me say I know her better than you.

I'll finalize by closing with my colleague's concerns about getting this done. Your government didn't get this done in climate targets or in housing program targets. In your file specifically, proportional representation, the CCB is based upon the Conservative model of the UCCB, and frankly, I'm worried about your grandchildren paying off the debt and deficit, never mind having a space in day care, Minister.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Minister, please give a very short answer.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I am very excited about the early learning and child care initiative. I know the Conservatives wanted to scrap it, just as they did in 2005. Fortunately, Canadians felt differently, and we are very excited to implement this measure. Families in Alberta and across the country are already seeing the benefits. That's progress.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Madame Kusie.

Now we go to Mr. Collins for five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Madam Minister. It's always nice to see you.

My questions are going to focus on the child care plan as well.

We're neighbours back in the Hamilton and Burlington area. Our ridings are adjacent to each other, and I know that my constituents in Hamilton East—Stoney Creek were very excited about the 10-dollar-a-day child care plan in terms of the money they would save and the savings that would accrue to families who had a child or children in the system.

I'm assuming your community was as excited as mine, and I was wondering if you could highlight today the amount of money that families in our area in southern Ontario, in the Burlington area and in the Hamilton and Stoney Creek area, might save as a result of the implementation of a 10-dollar-a-day day care plan.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

It's a great question, Mr. Collins. Thank you for it, and I can say that certainly families I've heard from in Ontario are eagerly awaiting a child care agreement. Unfortunately, they're the only families in Canada that don't have certainty about the reduction in fees this year and into the future. We are talking about hundreds of dollars a month. Families in southern Ontario pay some of the highest rates in the country, anywhere between $1,500 and $1,800 a month, and in some cases higher.

You can very well imagine that this is savings in some instances of hundreds of dollars a month, and we've committed to families across this country to see a reduction in fees by 50% by the end of this year. In Hamilton, Burlington and southern Ontario, that could be $600 or $700 a month. That's quite significant.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Minister. The most common question, I think, from my constituents was about how soon they will see those savings. I think you've highlighted that today, and congratulations on the success across the country. We're just down to Ontario in terms of getting this across the finish line for everyone.

I'm curious to know if you could provide an update on the talks with the province. I know that it has balked at the five-year term that you've secured with every other province and territory. They've balked at the dollar amount. I think it's over $10 billion over five years with no strings attached. There are a lot of red herrings out there, and I hope this has nothing to do with the provincial election that's on the horizon, but if you could comment on the status of negotiations with the province, we'd appreciate that.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Certainly. Our objective is to see families have a 50% reduction of fees by the end of this calendar year and to get to $10 a day by 2025-2026, as we've managed to achieve in agreements in every other jurisdiction in Canada.

Talks continue with the Province of Ontario. Minister Lecce and I continue to engage, and I remain very clear that there is a very fair deal of $10.2 billion over five years on the table for families in Ontario. That is a lot of money, and it will go a long way toward making a big difference for very many families here in Ontario.

I would like to add that we are having positive conversations, but we do need Ontario to send us their action plan, because that is the basis for the agreement and that is how we reached agreements with every other province and territory.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Minister.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to cede the rest of my time to my friend and colleague Mr. Coteau.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have one and a half minutes, Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

That $10.2 billion is a lot of money for Ontario to use in building a program. In large sections of the community I represent, family incomes are under $50,000 a year, so this would be a huge game-changer. As you know, the average cost for child care in Toronto is $1,700 per month.

I'd really like to know about the economic impact. There's always what's good for families and children, but what is the economic impact for society as a whole from a program like this? We're going to have parents going back to work earlier. We're going to have early development for children.

Have you done any type of study on the long-term economic impact for Canada?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Yes, and we have Quebec as an incredible model and example that we can draw from. We saw in Quebec that when affordable day care was implemented, Quebec went from having the lowest female workforce participation in the country to the highest.

We estimate that if Canadian women are able to go to work at the same levels as Quebec women, it would add 240,000 workers to the workforce here in Canada. At a time of labour shortages, that is quite significant. When you're choosing between going to work or paying for the high cost of day care, which may cost your monthly salary, it's pretty difficult to go to work.

That's one benefit. The other one, I would say, is that this is a program that pays for itself. The revenue generated by increased tax revenues, by higher household incomes and by greater workforce participation actually outstrips the costs of the program. That's what we've seen in Quebec.

In fact, when I spoke with my colleague in Quebec, Mr. Lacombe, he said it's a no-brainer. It's something that's good for kids and good for families and good for the economy.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Now we'll go to Madame Chabot for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, I will try to follow up quickly on the exchange we had earlier.

I have to say that the answers we got do not reflect the feelings and needs of workers who pay employment insurance premiums and expect to receive service and their benefits on time, nor the need for urgent action on the volume of claims that currently need to be processed.

In my view, a culture change is needed within Service Canada. This was part of the mandates specified in a 2016 report. I hope you will address it now and in the future.

I have a few simple questions about the $400‑million community services recovery fund that is planned.

What is the timeline for the introduction and implementation of the fund and how will the money be distributed across the provinces? Many community organizations have needs. The crisis has also exacerbated their demand for services.

What criteria will be applied to distribute these funds equitably among the provinces to the organizations that need them most?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much for the question, Ms. Chabot.

I want to assure you that I really care about the issues at Service Canada and I will continue to work with public servants to respond to people's requests, because I know how important it is to them.

In response to your question, the tender closes on February 22, 2022. We have approached three national organizations in terms of managing funds for community organizations: the Canadian Red Cross, Community Foundations of Canada, and United Way. We established objectives and goals. We have encouraged other organizations to apply as well. Our decision will be made on February 22, at which time we will see which national organizations can manage the funds.

We will certainly make sure that all regions of the country are fairly represented. Many organizations will be able to benefit from these funds. We will, of course, share the information with the committee when it becomes available.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Madame Zarrillo, you have two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to ask some questions around the implementation of the community services recovery fund.

I'll start by saying that “urgency” was definitely the keyword over the last two years in my community. We have relied very heavily on small, agile and vital not-for-profits and charities in my community to get food onto people's tables.

Could I get some more information about the part of the mandate letter that says, “Advance the implementation of the Community Services Recovery Fund”? What does that look like and what's the timing?