Evidence of meeting #88 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. David Chandonnet
Morgan Frank  Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual
Fenwick McKelvey  Associate Professor, Information and Communication Technology Policy, Concordia University, As an Individual

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)) Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 88 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is resuming its study on the implications of artificial intelligence technologies for the Canadian labour force.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are appearing in person and are appearing remotely using the Zoom application.

For the benefit of everyone, I would ask that, before you speak, you wait until I recognize you. For those appearing virtually, use the “raise hand” icon to get my attention. For those in the room, simply raise your hand.

You have the option of speaking in the official language of your choice. If translation services are discontinued, please get my attention. We'll suspend while they are being corrected. For those appearing virtually, use the globe symbol at the bottom of your screen for translation services. For those in the room, translation is provided via the earpiece.

I would also remind those in the room to please keep your earpiece away from your microphone for the protection of the translators, who can incur hearing injuries from the feedback.

All of our witnesses are appearing virtually today. We have James Bessen, professor of technology and policy—

4:30 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. David Chandonnet

He's not with us. He's the one who's not here.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

We have Morgan Frank, professor of the department of informatics and networked systems at the University of Pittsburgh, by video conference. We have Fenwick McKelvey, associate professor of information and communication technology policy at Concordia University, by video conference.

With that, we will have five-minute opening statements, beginning with Mr. Frank.

You have five minutes for an opening statement, please.

4:30 p.m.

Morgan Frank Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Thank you very much for this opportunity to share my thoughts with all of you.

Generative AI renews concerns for job stability, education and the future of work, because generative AI is capable of things that were unimaginable from AI systems just 10 years ago. The conventional wisdom from labour economics recognizes that technology does not automate occupations wholesale, but instead automates specific activities within a job.

The challenge is that workplace activities and AI applications vary across the entire economy. Therefore, efforts to predict automation and job stability need to rely on simplifying heuristics. Cognitive, creative and white-collar workers are assumed to be safe from automation, for example, because creativity is difficult to assess objectively and because the creative process is difficult to describe algorithmically.

However, generative AI, including tools like large language models like ChatGPT and image generators like Midjourney are doing creative work when they write essays, poetry or computer programming code, or when they generate novel images from just a prompt. This means that today's AI shatters the conventional wisdom that has been used to inform economic policy and economic research.

For example, unlike past automation studies, a recent report from OpenAI and the University of Pennsylvania found that U.S. occupations with the most exposure to large language models tended to be the occupations requiring the most education and earning the highest wages. Departing from a heuristic-based approach to predicting automation will require some new data that reflects the more direct implications of generative AI.

However, just like past technologies, generative AI performs specific workplace activities, which means that AI's most direct impact on occupations is through a shift in workers' skills and activities towards other skills that would complement AI. However, if workers fail to adapt then a job separation can occur. These separations include workers quitting or being fired by their employer. Job separations will lead workers to seek new employment, but if they struggle to find a job, then they may receive unemployment benefits to support them while they continue job seeking.

This lays out a pipeline of AI impact that identifies the most and least direct implications from AI and highlights that data that better reflects shifting skill demands, job separations by region or industry or occupation, and even the data on the unemployment risk experienced by occupations across the economy, will improve efforts to predict AI's impact on workers.

There are some emerging data sources, including job postings, workers' resumés and data from unemployment insurance offices, that offer some new options for describing these details in the labour market but are often missed by traditional government labour statistics.

Finally, because shifts in skills are the most direct consequence from exposure to generative AI, prudent policy should focus on the mechanisms for skill acquisition. If generative AI will mostly impact white-collar jobs, then we should focus on the skills taught during a college education since a college education is the typical mechanism for getting students into those white-collar jobs.

While labour statistics abound, insight into college skills are more difficult to find. If college skills are quantified, then just as we study generative AI in the workforce, we can also assess the colleges, students and major areas of study with the greatest exposure to AI. However, educational exposure to generative AI should not be shied away from. Recent case studies find that generative AI tools do not out-compete or significantly improve the performance of experts, but they do make a big difference in raising the performance of non-experts to be more comparable to that of the experts in those applications.

If this observation holds across contexts, then incorporating generative AI into learning curricula has the potential to improve learning objectives, especially for underperforming students, and therefore could strengthen educational programs.

In summary, generative AI is new and exciting and will impact the workforce in new ways from previous technology. In fact, generative AI shatters the conventional wisdom used to predict automation from AI in the past, because it does the work of occupations that were previously thought to be immune to automation.

A better path forward would focus on the data and insights reflecting what AI can actually do from the perspective of workplace skills and activities as well as the sources of those skills among workers in the workforce.

With that, thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Frank.

We'll now go to Mr. McKelvey for five minutes.

Mr. McKelvey, go ahead please.

4:35 p.m.

Professor Fenwick McKelvey Associate Professor, Information and Communication Technology Policy, Concordia University, As an Individual

Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak here today.

I'm an associate professor in information and communication technology policy at Concordia University. My research addresses the intersection of algorithms and AI in relation to technology policy. I submit these comments today in my professional capacity, representing my views alone.

I'm speaking from the unceded indigenous lands of Tiohtià:ke or Montreal. The Kanienkehaka nation is recognized as the custodians of the lands and waters from which I join you today.

I want to begin by connecting this study to the broader legislative agenda and then providing some specific comments about the connections between foundational models trained off public data or other large datasets and the growing concentration in the AI industry.

Canada is presently undergoing major changes to its federal data and privacy law through C-27, which grants greater exemptions for data collection as classified for legitimate business purposes. These exemptions enable greater use of machine learning and other data-dependent classes of AI technologies, putting tremendous pressure on a late amendment, the artificial intelligence and data act, to mitigate high-risk applications and plausible harms. Labour, automation, workers' privacy and data rights should be important considerations for this bill as seen in the U.S. AI executive order. I would encourage this committee to study the effects of C-27 on workplace privacy and the consequences of a more permissive data environment.

As for the relationship between labour and artificial intelligence, I wish to make three major observations based on my review of the literature, and a few recommendations. First, AI will affect the labour force, and these effects will be unevenly distributed. Second, AI's effects are not simply about automation but about the quality of work. Third, the current arrangement of AI is concentrating power in a few technology firms.

I grew up in St. John, New Brunswick, under the shadow of global supply chains and a changing workforce. My friends all worked in call centres. Now these same jobs will be automated by chatbots, or at least assisted through generative AI. My own research has shown that a driving theme in discussing AI in telecommunication services focuses on automating customer contact.

I begin with call centres because, as we know through the work of Dr. Enda Brophy, that work is “female, precarious, and mobile.” The example serves as an important reminder that AI's effects may further marginalize workers targeted for automation.

AI's effects seem to already be affecting precarious outsourced workers, according to reporting from Rest of World. Understanding the intersectional effects of AI is critical to understanding its impact on workforce. We are only beginning to see how Canada will fit into these global shifts and how Canada might export more precarious jobs abroad as well as find new sources of job growth across its regions and sectors.

Finally, workers are increasingly finding themselves subjected to algorithmic management. Combined with a growing turn toward workplace surveillance, as being studied by Dr. Adam Molnar, there is an urgent need to understand and protect workers from invasive data-gathering that might reduce their workplace autonomy or even train less skilled workers or automated replacements. According to the OECD, workers subjected to algorithmic management have a larger reported feeling of a loss of autonomy.

All the promises of AI hinge on being able to do work more efficiently, but who benefits from this efficiency? OECD studies have found that “AI may also lead to a higher pace and intensity of work”. The impact seems obvious and well established by past studies of technology like the BlackBerry, which shifted workplace expectations and encouraged an always-on expectation of the worker. Other research suggests that AI has the biggest benefits for new employees. The presumed benefit is that this enables workers to make a contribution more quickly, but the risk is that AI contributes to a devaluing or deskilling of workers. These emphasize the need to consider AI's effects not just on jobs but on the quality of work itself.

The introduction of generative AI marks a change in how important office suites like Microsoft Office, Google Docs and Adobe Creative Cloud function in the workplace. My final comment here is less about AI's particular configuration now, but instead about a growing reliance on a few technology platforms that have become critical infrastructure for workplace productivity and are rapidly integrating generative AI functions. AI might lock in these firms' market power as their access to data and cloud computing might make it difficult to compete, as well as for workers to opt out of these products and services. Past examples demonstrate that communication technology favours monopolies without open standards or efforts to decentralize power.

I am happy to discuss remedies and solutions in the question and answer period, but I encourage the committee to do a few things.

One, investigate better protection of workers and workers' rights, including greater data protection and safeguards and enforcement against invasive workplace surveillance, especially to ensure workers can't train themselves out of a job.

Two, consider arbitration and greater support in bargaining power, especially for contracts between independent contractors and large technology firms.

Three, ensure that efficiency benefits are fairly distributed, such as considering a four-day workweek, raising minimum wage and ensuring a right to disconnect.

Thank you for the time and the opportunity to speak.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. McKelvey.

We will begin the first round of questioning with Ms. Ferreri for six minutes, please.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses who are here today to discuss the impacts of AI, in particular, on labour but also where Canada sits on this.

Mr. Frank, are you Canadian? I know you're working out of an American university. Are you Canadian?

4:40 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

I'm not Canadian, no. I'm American.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

What do you know about Canada's current productivity in terms of AI and where we stand?

4:40 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

I know that Canada is very active in innovating in this space, mostly through my exposure to academic activity in the area of machine learning, computer science and data science as well.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Actually, “Canada is 29th out of 38 countries in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, based on GDP per hour worked—to the low[est] rates of new-technology adoption in our private sector.” We're actually doing really poorly in this area. We're really behind in our production. Our productivity in the last eight years has really plummeted as well. It says, “out of 35 OECD countries whose national statistical agencies have conducted similar business surveys, Canada ranks 20th in AI adoption.” That's 20th out of 35.

You had some really interesting points that you were talking about. I'd like you to expand on them. You talked about the creative ability of AI. In particular, you said something about not being “immune to automation”. What do you mean by that?

4:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

What I mean is that because the nature of workplace activities or the skills you would need to perform one job compared to another are so particular and so diverse, it's been difficult to find data that reflects all this variability, so researchers have relied on just heuristics. For example, if you get a college degree, you don't have to worry about automation.

What's interesting about generative AI is that it's doing work that would have been assumed to be safe from automation just a few years ago. That means there are new parts of the economy—in particular, high-skilled, white-collar jobs—where generative AI is doing some of the workplace activities we would expect from these workers. That is something new.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Where do you see closing the gap so that the employee learns how to operate AI rather than being replaced by AI?

4:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

This is a very good question. It's not exactly clear how to incentivize this among employers. I think workers recognize that they need to upskill to work with whatever the new technology is in their domain, but I feel that employers and HR don't make enough space for this, or they don't see the value.

What's a lot more common generally is that sometimes it's easier to separate with a worker who's been with you for a while and has a higher wage, when you can hire somebody out of college for much cheaper, who's just entering the workforce and is already prepared to work with new technology. Exactly how to do this re-skilling on the fly for folks who are already in the middle of their careers is an open question.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thank you for that.

As somebody who's sitting on the other side of the border, looking in at Canada, how do you think we're doing on a productivity level? I know that I gave you some stats, but what is the general consensus? Is that something that's talked about amongst your peers and colleagues?

4:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

What I see is that, as I mentioned, the research activity around AI in Canada is very strong. I feel that, given the statistics you pointed out, there could be an improvement in capturing some of that talent in the economics of Canada.

My understanding is that there are tech companies who are interested in places like Vancouver, for example, but this population of companies and workers is far outstripped by areas in the U.S., including in New York and in Silicon Valley outside San Francisco. Maybe that type of critical mass hasn't quite found a home in Canada yet.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

You just touched on a very critical point. We have the potential to attract the talent, to attract the work and to increase our GDP, but there are barriers in place of what brings people to Canada. I don't know if you want to expand on that, but I'm curious to know whether you've heard about our housing crisis, our inflation or about these kinds of issues.

4:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

Yes. I don't have too much to say about that, although we have many of the same issues in the U.S. too.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thank you for that.

If I can go to you, Mr. Fenwick, your testimony seemed almost anti-AI. Even when I see what you have published in Internet Daemons: Digital Communications Possessed, it seems that you have a more negative spin on something that can be used as a tool.

It is important. As I say, the horse is out of the barn. How do we use this to our benefit rather than being afraid of something that is inevitable?

4:45 p.m.

Prof. Fenwick McKelvey

I would say that I don't have a negative view of artificial intelligence. What I would say is that I am cautious. I think my responsibility is to identify gaps between the development and deployment of artificial intelligence in the current regulatory environment in Canada and, in particular, some of the ways we're talking about as to how Canada fits into a global political economy around artificial intelligence.

I think some of my concerns around specifically generative AI hinge upon its impacts and relationship to Canadian privacy law. I think what we've seen—and I think what's quite significant—is that we're undergoing a kind of classic procurement hack, which is that technology like ChatGPT has been released to the public and workers are adopting and scrambling this without actual adequate time to address how this is being integrated into the workforce.

This is a strategy similar to what's been used by companies like Clearview AI in trying to adapt the use of AI tools in police forces through a similar mechanism of circumventing classic procurement mechanisms. I think these types of strategies are part of what I hope to call out. I have less concern about the technology itself, necessarily, than about its delivery and development with a clear sense of its social impacts.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON

Thank you for that, and just to correct, I called you “Mr. Fenwick” earlier and it's “Mr. McKelvey”. I'm sorry.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

Mr. Coteau, you have six minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. It's pretty exciting to hear from experts on this very interesting subject matter. Thank you for your time.

Maybe I'll start with Mr. Frank.

You suggested that generative AI may impact white-collar workers more than those we traditionally refer to as blue-collar workers, and I'm assuming that automation would affect white-collar workers less than AI would.

Can you explain a bit more about those two technologies? I know that this is a study on AI, but I think it's important, because I guess the second part to the question is this: How is the integration or the intersection between those two technologies going to impact both workforce sectors?

4:50 p.m.

Professor, Department of Informatics and Networked Systems, University of Pittsburgh, As an Individual

Morgan Frank

To elaborate, yes, workers across the economy in white-collar roles or blue-collar roles face a threat of automation from technology, although usually the technologies are really quite different. The go-to example for blue-collar workers might be thinking about robotics in manufacturing, while until recently the example for white-collar workers was to think about things like computer programming and machine learning.

It seems that blue-collar workers are at greater risk of being completely substituted by things like robotics—imagine a conveyer belt with a robot arm completely replacing somebody who would otherwise have to move things around—while white-collar workers are made more productive, because machine learning makes it easier to analyze data and to focus more on interpreting results rather than actually crunching numbers.

Generative AI is different because it seems that it's doing actually the more cognitive part of that white-collar work. It's actually able to interpret results in addition to things that standard AI machine learning can already do—like crunch numbers. This makes it fundamentally different and fundamentally within the domain of work that usually describes a white-collar job rather than a blue-collar job.