Evidence of meeting #24 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
No, you can't move anything on a point of order.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I'm sorry, but I didn't hear that she was moving anything, but—
Liberal
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
What I was saying, Mr. Chair, is we've heard from the witnesses today how important it is, and yet the Conservatives and the Bloc are refusing to debate a motion that would make the school food program permanent or to study this motion.
Conservative
Conservative
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Hold on, Mr. Chair. If we're getting into that, I have something to say too.
Ms. Desrochers, it's not that we don't want to debate it; it's just that we want to be able to study the motion. It was just introduced like that, without 48 hours' notice—
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
If we accept that in all the committees, we won't have time to study the motion in question.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Don't go and say we're against the motion, Ms. Desrochers. We just want to study it properly.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Larouche.
Now, I want to advise the committee that the first hour is concluded. We were able to move Mr. Kirk to the second hour. I've been advised that he was successfully tested.
With that, we will suspend while we transition to the second hour.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Committee members, we are back in session for the second panel.
I would like to welcome, in the committee room, Ms. Joomun, the executive director of the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations. Appearing virtually by video conference, we have Ms. Wu from the Toronto School of Traditional Chinese Medicine, and we have Mr. Kirk from the Council of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture Schools of Ontario.
I'm going to begin with Mr. Kirk for five minutes.
Mr. Kirk, please give your full opening statement.
President, Council of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture Schools of Ontario
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, vice-chairs and members of the committee, good afternoon and thank you for this opportunity to speak on behalf of our profession and our students.
My name is Dylan Kirk, and I'm here today as the president of the Council of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture Schools of Ontario, representing the institutions that train the majority of this workforce in our province.
I am also a practitioner of TCM and the academic dean at the Ontario College of TCM, which has been operating since 1998. We take immense pride in running excellent, high-standard education programs. Our graduates join the approximately 7,700 registered acupuncturists, TCM practitioners or doctors of TCM who offer affordable health care to millions of patients across Canada, relieving pressure on our public health system.
I'm here to address a critical disconnect between the text of Bill C-15 and the government's stated policy direction in the budget. The 2025 federal budget explicitly stated an intention to remove Canada student grants for anyone attending private colleges. While Bill C-15 only mentions institutions outside Canada, the concern for domestic students remains.
Our primary request to this committee is clear. We ask that Canada reconsider this action and continue supporting students in our programs, as has been done successfully for decades, to ensure that future talent can continue to serve the health care needs of Canadians.
Private colleges are not competing with the public system; we are complementing it. We provide specialized, high-level training capable of meeting the needs of students and the profession. In Ontario, there are three designations we train: three-year full-time or equivalent registered acupuncturist; four-year full-time or equivalent registered TCM practitioner; and five-year full-time or equivalent for the proposed doctor of TCM designation.
There are only four public colleges in all of Canada that offer TCM or acupuncture programs. Ontario has one TCM practitioner program. B.C., Alberta and Quebec each have one acupuncture program. By contrast, there are at least 25 private institutions delivering this training across the country. This is evidenced in Ontario, where in 2024 only 23 of the 248 candidates who wrote the pan-Canadian examinations were from public colleges, while 225 were from private institutions.
If you implement the budget's plan, you will effectively cut off support for approximately 90% of the future workforce in this regulated health profession.
It is unclear why the government would make this change, but we have heard it might relate to fraudulent activities by a small number of private career colleges. Meanwhile, we have been ethically administering student assistance on behalf of Canada and the provinces, and there has never been a hint of impropriety or inappropriate action in our sector. It makes no sense to punish the private colleges and all of our students because of the illegal actions of a few unethical operators.
Our member institutions operate as private businesses with no subsidy from the government. Public institutions, in contrast, receive an estimated $8,000 to $12,000 of taxpayer money per seat. We rely entirely on tuition, and our students rely on a mix of grants and loans to afford that tuition. We are an asset to the Canadian economy and Canadian health care, not a liability.
At OCTCM, nearly 80% of our 311 students receive financial assistance, including federal grant awards. Many of these students are upgrading skills or entering a second career. Federal and provincial awards are crucial for their ability to complete their education.
If you replace these grants with loans, as the budget proposes, the first effect is that you will burden future health care practitioners with significantly higher debt just as they start their careers; the second is that students considering this career will not find it accessible; and the third is that many TCM colleges across Canada will contract or cease operations.
Mr. Chair, we have sent letters to both Minister Hajdu and provincial Minister Quinn detailing these risks. Today, we ask you to act. We recommend this committee report to the House that students in regulated health care programs must be exempt from any cuts to Canada student grants.
We ask you to remove this threat from the federal agenda so we can continue training the health care workers Canada desperately needs.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Mr. Kirk, thank you for moving to the second panel.
We'll now move to you, Ms. Joomun, for up to five minutes for your opening statement.
Bibi Wasiimah Joomun Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Good afternoon, honourable Chair, esteemed committee members and fellow witnesses.
I would like to begin my statement by saying that I am joining you today on the territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin nation.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear today.
I am here representing the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations, CASA, and alongside our partner at the Union étudiante du Québec, I am speaking on behalf of more than half a million post-secondary students currently attending 40 public colleges, polytechnics, CEGEPs and universities across Canada.
The Canada student financial aid program supports over 700,000 Canadians annually via loans and grants. CASA is currently running a campaign pushing for the permanent increase in financial aid support for students. Students are sharing their realities of how, without adequate financial support, they will lose access to post-secondary education.
A second-year student at the University of Alberta shares the following:
A cut to the CSFA [program] would reduce my capacity to attend university and may cause me to have to leave school to work entry-level jobs for many years just to afford [education]. Please listen to the students all across Canada who will be affected by this. With the scarcity of jobs currently and low student worker wages, paying for school will be a lot more difficult and add on to the stress of youth. I hope you will keep all of these students in mind.
Our 2024 survey with Abacus Data reports that even with the current levels of funding, students are struggling, in that 3% of domestic students experience homelessness and 36% skip meals because they cannot afford food. Over 28% of Canada student financial aid recipients report unmet financial need, a figure projected to rise to 55% if annual grants are to decrease by $1,200 and weekly loans by $90, pricing out education for over 180,000 Canadians.
Since the 2022 temporary expansion of the program at $4,200, domestic participation in post-secondary education increased by 6.7% among low- and middle-income learners. Enrolment growth has been most pronounced among students from the lowest 40% of households incomes, groups historically under-represented in post-secondary education. In 2022–23, 87% of indigenous student beneficiaries received grants. These cuts would hit hardest for low- and middle-income students, students with disabilities, students with dependants, first-generation students and indigenous students.
Last month we asked Canadians about this, and 77% reported that they would see notable impacts on their standard of living if their income were to drop by $100 a week. Canadians understand the financial reality, with the majority saying they would oppose a cut to student financial aid.
This is also reflected in e-petition 7090, currently before Parliament, which calls for a permanent expansion of the Canada student financial aid program to prevent support levels from reverting after July 2026. In less than three weeks, more than 2,500 Canadians have signed this petition, demonstrating that students and families are being loud and clear in communicating to the government that maintaining and strengthening student financial aid is essential to preserving access to post-secondary education across Canada.
Canadians across the board are facing financial precarity. Now is not the time to cut aid, particularly for students, who face the brunt of the affordability crisis. Over the past year, students have faced sharp increases in costs across key areas, including rent, up by 21.6%; living expenses, up by 71.7%; and school-related costs, up by 23.5%; yet data shows that for every dollar spent in the Canada student financial aid program by the government, $1.64 is brought back to the Canadian economy.
This committee's current study of the subject matter of part 5, including division 36, of Bill C-15 is directly consequential for students. Division 36 specifically engages amendments related to the Canada Student Financial Assistance Act, making this study a critical opportunity to ensure that any legislative or regulatory changes strengthen, rather than weaken, access and predictability of federal student aid.
From the student policy perspective, we urge the committee to assess these measures through the lens of financial adequacy, unmet need and long-term program sustainability. Federal student aid is not simply an expenditure line; it is a core labour, productivity and social mobility instrument. As Parliament considers implementation measures flowing from the federal budget, it is essential that student financial assistance policy continues to reflect real-world cost pressures and preserves the federal government commitment to reducing financial barriers to post-secondary education and empowering the next generation. Education builds a nation, and students cannot build Canada's future if they are too busy fighting to afford the present.
Thank you for your time.
I look forward to your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Joomun.
I would just remind the presenters to slow it a bit when they're speaking for the translators, who must translate for you.
We have the final presentation from Ms. Wu for five minutes or less.
Mary Wu President, Toronto School of Traditional Chinese Medicine
Thank you, Mr. Chair, vice-chairs and committee members of HUMA. I deeply appreciate this opportunity to address the committee.
I think I need only to echo the previous two witnesses, who have said everything so well, but I would still like to take the floor and express my appreciation and our concerns.
My name is Mary Xiumei Wu, and I'm the president of the Toronto School of Traditional Chinese Medicine. I was a medical doctor in China and a registered TCM practitioner and acupuncturist here in Ontario.
In China, I received five years of medical school training, majoring in traditional Chinese medicine. I was a medical doctor and a researcher, as well as an educator back then, at home. That's from 1975. If we calculate it, it's been about 50 years already.
I came to Canada in 1986, completed my master's degree in biology and did medical research in privileged organizations, such as the Banting and Best institute and the Hospital for Sick Children in the fields of reproduction, diabetes and gene therapy.
I have been an advocate for and played a leadership role in the regulation of the traditional Chinese medicine profession, as well as natural health products. I have appeared before the committee a few times already. It is so great to be here again today to talk about this very important topic.
The reason for my appearance today is that we are deeply concerned about certain proposed budget measures that are discriminatory and would negatively impact the vital work our institutions, our graduates and our students will be doing or are doing. While I realize that these measures have not yet been implemented and are not contained within the budget implementation act, they represent government policy intention and directly relate to the issues of financial support being discussed at this committee now, so we must address the policy intent now to prevent inequity.
On behalf of our students, their families and our graduates, we request that the committee ensure the continued financial support—especially the Canada student grant—that is extended to all eligible full-time students, including our students who are attending private institutions.
I'm going to skip a few things and not elaborate on their importance. I'll get to the end and to our request.
We sincerely request that the committee reconsider the proposal and continue to offer the Canada student grant to our students. We're not asking for anything extra, really. We are simply asking to be treated fairly and for everything to be fair to the students who are attending public educational institutions and private educational institutions.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Madam Wu.
With that, we'll begin the first round of questions with six minutes each.
Mr. Genuis, you have the floor.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you very much to our witnesses.
Conservatives put forward in the fall our Conservative youth jobs plan. That included proposals to fix training, which focused on accessible training for students pursuing in-demand jobs. We recognize that there are some skill gaps in the economy. There are some areas where people with specific skills are needed, and there's not a sufficient number of people who have that training.
Unfortunately, in response to these proposals, Liberals presented a budget that actually went in the opposite direction by proposing discrimination against students studying job-relevant programs at career colleges. These provisions were not in the BIA, but they were in the budget and the deputy minister has reaffirmed that these remain government policy. We've heard today specifically about the impacts that this would have on traditional Chinese medicine.
It seems strange to me that the government would take the position that any student studying any program at a university gets the full grant, regardless of the connection to employment or not, and that any student studying at a career college would not be eligible for that grant, regardless of the connection to employment or not. It seems like a strange way to make this distinction when we have many in-demand skills and we have students preparing for very in-demand jobs at career colleges who would be cut off as a result of this policy. Traditional Chinese medicine is one example among many.
I did some events specifically on this issue with now-Liberal MP Michael Ma. I was hoping that he would join us today and he chose not to. Michael Ma was previously very vocal on the issue of how these budget provisions would attack traditional Chinese medicine and on the concerns he had that were reflecting on his community. He actually called this “systemic discrimination”. He said that the budget provisions as they related to traditional Chinese medicine and to the impact on the Chinese community amounted to systemic discrimination.
I'd like to ask the witnesses who we have here, particularly those from the TCM community, if they would agree with Liberal MP Michael Ma's previous comments that the change proposed in the budget would qualify as systemic discrimination.
President, Toronto School of Traditional Chinese Medicine
We do feel that we are discriminated against. In this case, actually, Michael was right. It was systemic in that way, because at the beginning, when we started our program, we were told that our students were not eligible for student financial assistance. You know, it took us over 20 years to communicate with the government and to really work very hard with our students, our associations and so on to request even the eligibility for anyone studying TCM and acupuncture in private institutions to get student assistance. That is one thing.
Another thing is that we do not have any government funding—I mean zero—and we all have to work by ourselves day and night. Sometimes people say that we are for-profit, but we are really not-for-profit: We do this because of our formal belief in this ancient medicine. We believe this medicine could help everybody significantly—including everyone in Canada here—with health promotion and for disease prevention and treatments.
Third, our graduates from private institutions were not allowed to get a working permit for international students. That cut out a lot of other things. Even for the past couple of years, we were not allowed to have any international students.
In this way, we do agree.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I'm sorry. I'll just jump in, because I have one minute left.
I appreciate the point you're making about how there's a link between the discrimination in this grant and access. You've made the point effectively, because the vast majority of people are trained through these types of institutions where the grants would no longer be eligible. It would have a significant impact on access.
Mr. Kirk, in the time we have left could you comment on Mr. Ma's comments that this policy constitutes systemic discrimination? Was Mr. Ma right to say that this is systemic discrimination?
President, Council of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture Schools of Ontario
Yes, we have faced an uphill battle in this profession and often have faced misunderstanding from regulators or other health care professions or policy-makers. Part of that is why the majority of our educational system is private colleges. We do see the need to be flexible and adapt to the situation.
I agree with that statement. We hope to continue to advocate for the profession and allow our students to access the same resources as those who decide to go to public colleges.