Evidence of meeting #28 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was experience.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.
Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses. It's interesting to hear different points of view, whether from a research perspective or from a human resources perspective. As for you, Ms. Hamill, you talked to us about the human aspect; you have my deepest sympathy, and I offer you my condolences. I don't think you ever fully recover from an experience like that. My daughter was born during the pandemic, and I think there needs to be research on the experience of pregnancy, childbirth and grief during that time. The pandemic added an emotional layer and prevented people from fully experiencing the ritual we should engage in to try to heal and take care of ourselves. It wasn't easy to do that in this context. I offer you my deepest condolences, and I thank you for your courage in continuing the fight. I imagine you're doing this in memory of your daughter and to spare others from going through this experience; we can feel that.
You said you didn't know how many weeks should be allowed under the bill. It's difficult to estimate the number of weeks needed. I'll come back to that with the researcher who mentioned it. Let's get back to the bill before us today. According to the Quebec parental insurance plan, people are entitled to 18 weeks, but the fact remains that it's hard to quantify.
We actually want a more comprehensive reform of employment insurance so that the Employment Insurance Act would be more humane, more feminist and more compassionate. Often, it is women who are penalized. There are still women who face discrimination and are unable to access employment insurance after maternity leave because they haven't accumulated the required number of weeks of work. The rules are not flexible enough and don't take women's situations into account. Our former colleague, Louise Chabot, fought for employment insurance reform.
As I said, it's hard to put into weeks the amount of time off required. Do you have any other measures to suggest to us? How many weeks do you think we should keep in mind, as legislators? In your experience, what could accompany this bill and help parents?
Communications Coordinator, As an Individual
The other witness mentioned having the leave potentially chunked out into different times. That could be very helpful. As I said, I was off for about 11 months, which meant I went back to work about a month before the death anniversary of my child. That coincided with the holiday season, which is already a hard time for bereaved people.
When I returned to work, I had to embark on a bit of a struggle with our long-term leave supplier, because in addition, I needed the week off surrounding New Year's Eve. They did not quite understand why it might be difficult to return to work on January 2 after a difficult holiday season. My therapist got involved and was able to ensure that I would not return to work until after that time unless I had that time off.
There are other milestones. For me, because her birthday and her death date aren't significantly close together—she lived seven and a half months—both of those times are difficult, and I continue to use my vacation to not be at work for those times. That might be something that could be included.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you.
I want to come back to the issue regarding the 18 weeks.
Ms. Meunier, you mentioned the Quebec parental insurance plan. In Quebec, parents are fortunate to have access to 18 weeks of benefits.
You provided a lot of figures and talked about splitting up the leave. What are your observations? Could those 18 weeks be a model for the federal government? Should we take more considerations into account? Should the scope of the bill be broadened to take into account other realities, such as blended or adoptive families? Is that something you've observed in your research?
Professor, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
You're right, it is quite difficult to put a number on the duration of this leave, as there is a lot of variability from one person to another. One thing is certain: Everyone who has taken advantage of the 18-week maternity leave has greatly appreciated it. According to our data, we even see that these individuals have higher scores for psychological well-being at work once they return. So we see the benefits of the 18-week leave.
Could the leave be longer in some cases? We know there are some cases where, after maternity leave, mothers still requested sick leave because they weren't ready yet. On the other hand, we also have mothers who returned to work earlier and didn't take the full 18 weeks. As I mentioned, it varies greatly from person to person. However, I think the 18-week leave already seems like a good compromise.
The problem we have in Quebec is that the person who did not carry the child—whether the father or the partner—is not taken into consideration at all in this type of leave. Instead, they have to resort to unpaid leave or sick leave, among other options, as we discussed earlier. So I think it's very important that the bill apply to both parents.
Also, I don't know if this is something the bill can include, but awareness really needs to be raised in workplaces about bereavement. I am very concerned about perinatal bereavement, which includes the loss of a child during pregnancy. This is still a taboo subject in organizations. I think people are all very compassionate and want to do the right thing, but they don't know how to address this issue or how to support employees. There are all kinds of measures, such as a gradual return to work, that can be of enormous help to those who are grieving.
During the pandemic, there were a number of difficult aspects. You mentioned this. However, there is one positive aspect that has been reported to us, and that is the fact that mothers appreciated the opportunity to work from home. When they were experiencing more intense emotions, they could take a short break and be at home, rather than in front of all their colleagues. So employers should also have this flexibility. This may not be the bill's main goal, but it can still raise awareness of this issue in the workplace.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Larouche.
Now we have Mr. Seeback for five minutes.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Hamill, I'm so sorry. I lost a child in childbirth. It is unbelievably devastating. You never get over it. January is always a terrible month for me. I didn't have to go through what you went through. My wife at the time had great benefits at work, so she had her maternity leave benefits through work.
This bill is something we need, and I think everyone here agrees with that. The challenge we have is that, because it will require the government to spend money, it needs something called a royal recommendation, and members on this side are not able to do that. Only the government can give a royal recommendation to a private member's bill if it's going to cause the government to spend money.
I take it that you think it's very important that the government give this recommendation.
I would ask all the witnesses if you agree that that would be an important thing because of the value it's going to provide to so many people.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I hope the government is going to get there, because if you haven't gone through the suffering of losing a child, you can think you understand it and can try to understand it, but you actually cannot. It is debilitating. I still remember when it felt like my heart physically broke. I actually felt like there was a crack.
I hope we'll get this done, because I think it's so important, and I hope we can get the royal recommendation.
Mr. Chair, I don't have any other questions.
Conservative
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Thank you.
I want to thank you, Ms. Hamill, for sharing. Like you, I had a baby during COVID. That was a complicated space to begin with, especially with all of the pieces.
Very similar to Ms. Falk, I then had my second baby. It was early and there were complications. We had to get airlifted out, go to another community and navigate that. My experience being in a NICU was the first time I'd really fully considered that there were babies dying around me and there were moms dying around me. There were things I'd never really contemplated. My first baby was very healthy, very similar to your Octavia, so this wasn't even something that would be in the brain. It was really heartbreaking to me to be in these NICUs, to hear some of these stories and to contemplate some of the challenges these people were going through.
I want to sincerely thank you for being brave in telling this story, letting your daughter's legacy build something spectacular and letting your loss be part of hopefully fixing part of this problem for someone else. Is there anything you'd like to share with us about your daughter so that when we're looking at this bill and we're looking to vote on this, we can think about some positive memories of your daughter?
Communications Coordinator, As an Individual
What a wonderful question. Thank you.
Lyrica was born with a congenital heart defect. We did know this prenatally, so we were prepared. We live in Peterborough, so my husband and I moved to Toronto to prepare for her birth.
As I said, she had rock star hair at birth. It was an inch and a half long. It was brown and it stuck up everywhere. The nurses at SickKids continued to smooth it down. We always spiked it up. She was big. She was eight pounds, which was a massive baby for being in the cardiac care unit. There wasn't a single medical professional who didn't come in there and say, “Wow, what a big baby.” I just joked with them at the time: “You told me bigger was better, so here we go.”
We knew she would require immediate heart surgery. Her surgery went well, and she came back. We were home within a month from open-heart surgery. She grew. She thrived. She learned to laugh. She smiled. She interacted with her sister. My daughter loved her baby sister.
She did get to meet some of our family members, even with COVID. We were very careful about who she got to see and when, because of everything going on. She was severely immunocompromised.
She learned to laugh the day we went in for a checkup that had us being admitted entirely unexpectedly. It was the first time I had gone to Toronto without an overnight bag, and we were again unexpectedly at SickKids. She had another heart surgery within a week. Recovery was a little longer this time. It took a little longer to get home, but again, we were home, with the idea that she should be good for quite a while.
She didn't have a terminal diagnosis. She had a very good prognosis. She had a 90% chance at a good life, which, in my mind, isn't a 90% chance at living; it's living a good life.
She developed a complication with arrhythmia. We think that is ultimately what caused her to die unexpectedly. It was a traumatic night, with ambulances and the ER, very much like what you would see in a TV show. My husband works for Ornge air ambulance, the airlifting place in Ontario—I don't think either of you are from Ontario—which is why he took longer to return to work. We had them on standby to try to get to SickKids on time. Peterborough has a wonderful hospital, but they're not a pediatric centre.
Her life was happy. The time she was home was happy. She spent time with her family. We went swimming. We did the things you do with your three-month-old, your four-month-old. It was lovely to have her. My daughter still talks about her daily. I do have a new young son. He's two and a half now, so we are trying to teach him about his older sister.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, committee members.
As you can see, this subject matter impacts people differently.
We will conclude the first round, and we'll turn to Ms. Fancy for five minutes.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you very much.
Thank you to all the witnesses who have come today.
Ms. Hamill, as you were talking about Lyrica with her rock star hair, it reminded me of my own little sister, whose nickname is “Spike” for the same reason.
Let's take this now from a policy standpoint, because as parliamentarians, one of the reasons we want to be in this job is to help make further progress for human situations that occur.
I'd like to start with Ms. Meunier in regard to some of her research.
Ms. Meunier, I am wondering, from a public policy perspective, how Bill C-222 strengthens Canada's parental leave framework.
Professor, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
As I understand Bill C‑222, it allows parents who lose their child during maternity, paternity or parental leave to continue to benefit from that leave without having to go through administrative procedures. I'm thinking of cases like the one mentioned in a testimony this morning, where people even had to repay certain benefits they had received. Ultimately, this adds to their distress. Those parents are not normally in a state where they have the desire or energy to deal with this kind of a situation.
The great added value of this bill is that it allows parents to grieve and recover without additional stress—financial stress and stress caused by these procedures. That's my understanding of the bill.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
That's wonderful.
My second question on that is, how important do you think job protection leave under the Canada Labour Code is for ensuring that grieving parents can take the time they need without the fear of reprisal or losing employment?
Professor, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
When leave is provided by the federal government, I think it promotes greater uniformity in that it's available to everyone, and being able to benefit from that leave becomes somewhat the norm. Therefore, parents' circumstances depend less on the goodwill of their employer, for example, or on the fact that better conditions exist in their workplace.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you for your research on this important topic.
I'd like to turn to Ms. Venditti.
Ms. Venditti, are there any amendments you would recommend for Bill C-222 as it stands at this point?
Human Resources Professional, As an Individual
No. I think the bill does exactly what it's supposed to do. Again, it's wonderful for employers to not have to support their employees in trying to figure out how to make these things.... This makes it much easier to transition while they're going through all this.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Do clear federal rules around parental benefit continuation help reduce confusion for employers when employees experience pregnancy loss or infant loss?
Human Resources Professional, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely. Having to have that discussion with your employee and trying to explain and understand.... We remove all of that. They just continue, and we're able to support them the best way we can, not by trying to navigate Service Canada but by asking, “How can we help your family?”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
We will conclude with Madame Larouche.
You have the floor for two and a half minutes.