Human Resources Committee on March 12th, 2026

[Francine deMontigny]

There’s no doubt that flexible leave is needed.

For some grieving parents, going back to work is good for them. It helps them reconnect with life. However, others tell us they tried it and it didn’t work. They broke down, and then found themselves on leave again.

Let me give you the example of a dad who had been on leave for two months and asked for an extension. The doctor refused, telling him his employer wouldn’t like it. I can talk about this dad because he appeared in a documentary. He decided he would be responsible and take down the Halloween decorations, since it was already late November. He climbed a ladder, but didn’t realize he was too heavy for the ladder. He fell off the ladder, broke his leg, and was on leave for six months. He told us he wasn't given time off because he had a broken heart, but he was given time off because he had a broken leg.

That’s what we see too, meaning that unaddressed heartache or grief turns into physical problems. People repeatedly show up at the ER with all sorts of ailments we can’t pinpoint, and when we dig deeper, we see, underneath, they are grieving.

I have a friend who, recently, after her father’s death, went to have him cremated. As she was driving home with the urn in the car, she ran a red light. She got into an accident and her car was a writeoff. She’s lucky to have walked away alive. She told me she never saw the red light. Grief can cause brain fog, much like COVID‑19 did. It’s the same thing. You’re not the same person; you don’t react the same way.

So, flexibility is essential. For people who need to go back to work, that’s great. Some people will work part-time because they say that things are fine in the morning, but they feel overwhelmed in the afternoon. Others need six months. It really depends on the individual.

During the pandemic, we heard people say that working from home made things easier because, when they were working, if they didn’t feel well and felt like crying, no one knew. They could cry, then get back to work without having to explain themselves or face the pitying smiles of those around them or people who didn’t know what to say.

Flexibility is therefore key.

I think what the bill is already doing—because we’ve been talking about this since 2018—is that it’s sparking a conversation. In Quebec, we’re in talks with the government and the various political parties to raise awareness, and we’re telling them that the federal government is taking action and that we need to follow suit. That already gives us leverage in the provinces to move things forward.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rosemarie Falk]

Thank you, Madame Desrochers.

Madame Larouche, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

We’ve been holding meetings on this bill for some time now, and we’ve been hearing some very emotional testimony.

In your case, you’re also sharing your experiences as a researcher and as someone who supports parents. This is another important and interesting perspective in our consideration of the bill.

I will address you first, Ms. deMontigny.

Naturally, this bill, which is essential and desired, will require royal assent. Unfortunately, it comes down to a financial issue. We will need to convince the government to grant royal assent.

You spoke at length about the impact of failing to act on this bill. In your presentation, you discussed the negative consequences of presenteeism—that is, when a person is at work but not productive. You also spoke about injuries. You gave examples. It’s true that we’re in the dark. In your examples, you mentioned a ladder breaking and a red light being run, but there are other consequences—both physical and psychological—that will have a financial impact.

I’d like to hear you drive home the message that, even financially, this bill is not an expense but rather an investment. Ultimately, collectively, it will cost us far less to take action. We often forget this, but, in the end, prevention is less expensive than intervention.

[Francine deMontigny]

Yes. It’s difficult to estimate the costs, but in one of our studies, we found that women who experienced a miscarriage and did not receive support in the community—from organizations like the PAIL Network, for example—ended up visiting the emergency room four or five times for the same miscarriage. Going to the ER, seeing a nurse, seeing a doctor, and undergoing tests—all of that represents significant costs.

Then, when psychiatric care is needed, that also represents significant costs, and it’s a source of distress for the family.

When we talk about costs, we also think of children with depressive or anxiety disorders, or behavioural disorders. These children need specialists. It’s something they will carry with them for the rest of their lives and will also pass on to their own children. The anxiety experienced by a mother during pregnancy is passed on to a female baby through epigenetic transfer, and her daughter will also pass it on to her own female children. We are talking about the intergenerational transmission of significant mental health disorders.

Prevention is therefore important to provide parents with a safe space to grieve properly and support one another through the process. It also prevents separation. Separation makes families economically, emotionally and socially more fragile. Families are increasingly deprived of all kinds of resources.

So, the goal is to prevent a range of problems for 100,000 Canadian families. The cost of this leave is very low compared to the consequences these problems may have later on. Quebec has calculated this, even though it hasn’t acted any faster as a result.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

However, as we saw earlier with the researchers, studies have demonstrated the positive impact of this leave, which is provided in Quebec through the Quebec parental insurance plan. We are fortunate to have it.

In your presentation, you spoke about the individuals experiencing such grief, but also about the individuals supporting them—their spouse or co-parent—who are also affected.

Based on what you’ve seen of the bill, does it also take into account the reality of fathers or co-parents, who may also face difficulties—as you’ve demonstrated—in being recognized in the support policies for such situations?

[Francine deMontigny]

It's even more important that paid bereavement leave be offered to fathers and co-parents. People often say there's no physical recovery, but they do need to recover emotionally and must be available to support their partner. So, it needs to be an option they can consider.

It is difficult for men to take time off work, from a social perspective. They wonder how it will be perceived by their employer. However, if the federal government says it is allowed and important—even if it’s negotiating just one week off—that alone will allow them to catch their breath. Often, when there is a Canada-wide movement, it can make things easier for individuals.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Since the start of this round, there has been a lot of discussion about the financial aspect, the importance of passing this bill because of the savings it would generate for us collectively, and the benefits of supporting co-parents or fathers. However, this bill also aims to reduce paperwork, so that people do not have to endure additional financial stress during a very difficult time.

In closing, in thirty seconds or less, could you tell us, other than the bill, what kinds of services should be funded to support parents who have just lost a child?

[Francine deMontigny]

We were just talking about an awareness campaign, and I’m also thinking about training. Services like those provided by the PAIL Network, which offers resources available virtually throughout Ontario, are beginning to be established in Quebec. The goal is to provide support resources whether virtually or in person.

Furthermore, we need to provide training for health care professionals so that they, too, are better equipped to support parents and are more aware that perinatal grief is not necessarily over when they meet the family during the next pregnancy. Things can resurface. We were talking about waves earlier. When a woman gets pregnant again, both parents may feel very anxious about how the pregnancy will end. Some parents told me they started crying the moment their child was born.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rosemarie Falk]

Thank you, Madame Larouche.

Now we'll go to Ms. Goodridge for five minutes, please.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Thank you for the work you are doing. It is so important to have these conversations so we can bring light to this. My grandma used to always say that sunshine is the best disinfectant. I think having conversations like this help people realize they're not alone.

I've never experienced a pregnancy loss, but I have experienced the loss of both of my parents. Grief is messy, and grief isn't the same with each loss. When I lost my mom at 21, that was a very different space and feeling from when I lost my dad as a much older, more responsible adult at 35. They're similar feelings but very different experiences. I can only imagine that this becomes very different depending on the parent and all these pieces.

We're hearing very clearly, especially in today's testimony, that this legislation is absolutely needed.

Ms. Fockler, you've probably heard about this up to this point. It has become clear that the only way this legislation can go forward—because it does require the government to spend money—is if the government gives a royal recommendation. The opposition and the House can want it as much as they want, but realistically, it lies with cabinet to make the decision as to whether they get the royal recommendation.

Do you recommend that this bill get a royal recommendation?

[Megan Fockler]

Yes, I do. We've heard a lot about how important it is for families. It's also important for the health care community, for professionals and for employers who are working in the space dealing with the human impact of loss and trying to make it better. Having the royal recommendation and the support for families would be really important.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

You've touched on something fairly new in this space, which is how it would impact health care workers. I used to sit on the health committee, and we heard a lot about burnout in health care. How would this bill help health care workers?

[Megan Fockler]

We've been talking about the pervasive impact of pregnancy and infant loss and how it obviously impacts the family. At PAIL Network, we provide peer support as one of the big pillars of what we do. We have that for the person who gave birth, partners and grandparents. We have a parenting after loss group, because we know that the impact of loss continues throughout life. It also impacts people who come into contact with families, like professionals and service providers.

As I said earlier, everyone wants to do their best to help the family, but when you know they're going to come up against a barrier—for example, having to go in person to Service Canada or having their parental leave end and having to switch over and go through that process—there's a very real impact as well. We hear a lot from professionals that when there aren't the resources they wish were there to give to a family, there's an impact on them as well. They feel like they are just sending the family home without supports and resources, which obviously doesn't feel very good.

It's so important to talk about this bill passing and about the impact on families, as well as the social cost and the costs to the systems. It is an investment to pass this bill and to develop resources, education, support and training for everyone who comes into contact with families, including health professionals.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you. I really appreciate this.

Ms. deMontigny, are there any support measures available at this time for fathers who lose their wives during pregnancy?

[Francine deMontigny]

It is quite rare for women to die during childbirth, but it has happened, including to a father in Quebec. He lost both his wife and his baby. He went to court to try to get parental leave. This happened 10 years ago. His request for leave was denied even though he was grieving the loss of both his wife and his baby.

I want to go back to the question Ms. Fockler answered.

Health care professionals feel quite helpless when faced with parents who must return to work even though they don't feel ready to do so. Furthermore, they have difficulty knowing how to help these parents.

Bill C‑222, in turn, will highlight the need to better understand grief. This applies to everyone—employers, health care professionals, family members and the families themselves.

People have to develop a better awareness of what it means to go through a perinatal death and go through grief, knowing that it's okay to ask, “Are you okay?” It's also okay if the other parent answers, “I'm not okay.”

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Rosemarie Falk]

Thank you very much.

For our next round, Mr. Joseph, you have five minutes.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I would like to commend your courage, Ms. Fockler. I must assure you that the government is truly committed to moving Bill C‑222 forward so that it passes and receives royal assent.

My question is for Ms. deMontigny.

You have 30 years of experience, which is extraordinary. I commend your courage as well. Do you think that, during those 30 years, it has been a battle against the administration, and that this bill will allow families to put an end to that battle, which I think is perfectly legitimate?

[Francine deMontigny]

The bill may not put an end to it, but in any case, it will be a step in the right direction, and I hope that step is taken before I retire.

Indeed, I have 30 years of experience, and I would say that I’ve noticed that, over the past five years, there has been much more discussion about perinatal death. Awareness days like October 15, which Ms. Fockler mentioned, shed light on the experiences of parents. I always tell journalists that perinatal bereavement doesn’t only happen on October 15. It happens every day; it’s happening right now.

These parents are entering a system that doesn’t match their expectations. They wanted to bring a baby home; they wanted to be parents. Instead, they have to fight at every step: with insurance companies, employers and with forms to fill out. So anything that makes their journey easier will help them.

When we held training sessions in various settings, parents told me that what they went through was horrible, but that they had received the best possible support. I hope this bill helps parents acknowledge that what they went through was difficult, but that, fortunately, they went through it in Canada, where they were in a social context that supported them, helped them and gave them the space to grieve.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You mentioned the good co-operation with all the provinces. Do you think there are currently obstacles between the provinces and the federal government delaying the progress of this bill?

[Francine deMontigny]

Perinatal deaths are not reported in the same way across all provinces. Statistics are very difficult to obtain, so estimates must be made based on the number of births. Some provinces record perinatal deaths starting at 24 weeks, 26 weeks, or 27 weeks of pregnancy. Information on anything that happens before that is not available. This is a challenge, because we don’t know what we’re talking about. We have to say, generally speaking, based on scientific knowledge, that we’re talking about one in four or one in five pregnancies. It’s hard to know how many miscarriages there are, because women sometimes miscarry at home. They don’t even go to the doctor. That is the main obstacle.

Next, I believe that the existence of a federal position puts pressure on the provinces. I see this in Quebec. I see that Quebec is aware of what is happening at the federal level. It wants to follow suit, and sometimes even get ahead of it. I think that’s a good thing, because it puts pressure on the provinces, which have to think about it. Right now, all three political parties are aware of the issue and want to take action. We’re following what’s happening at the federal level, and if we make progress, it will have a ripple effect across Canada.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Rest assured, we are delivering on our promises.

I’m going to ask you one last question.

More broadly speaking, when it comes to public policy, we have a role to play. In your opinion, what is that role? Do you have any recommendations or advice? Given your professional experience, I think your recommendations would be most welcome.

[Francine deMontigny]

That is a big question.

I don't know if you have an answer.

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I could put my question to Ms. Fockler.

[Francine deMontigny]

Do you have an answer? It's a big question.

[Megan Fockler]

Yes, it's a big question. Maybe we can share it.

Thank you for the question.

I think you've heard amazing recommendations from speakers. At PAIL Network, we encourage really focusing on listening to the voices of parents and following recommendations of people who have lived experience of loss.

We are so fortunate that often families are very generous. There's amazing literature, which I'd be happy to share, that has surveys of thousands of families who have said what is important to them at the time of their pregnancy infant loss.

I think listening to the voices of grieving parents is really important for informing policy, and having a federal approach to addressing pregnancy and infant loss in general would be really important. This bill is a very strong message for families that this type of loss matters, that their baby matters and that they don't need to grieve alone. I think that—