Evidence of meeting #34 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Gascoyne  Partner and Senior Vice-President, Development, CentreCourt
Levesque  Chief Executive Officer, UTILE
Pelletier  Director, Public Affairs, UTILE
Watts  Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director, Welcome Hall Mission
Boldt  Director General, Housing Policy Branch, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities
Langelier  Executive Director, Strategic Policy and Integration Sector, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

10:20 a.m.

Director General, Housing Policy Branch, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

Lindsay Boldt

In the cases of the six direct-build sites that are currently in play, there have been RFPs, or requests for proposals, issued to bring forward the right general contractors and whatnot to help manage and deliver on those properties. There is an emphasis, in the case of those six, on pulling in as much factory-built housing as possible.

Build Canada Homes has the initial capitalization of $13 billion. As part of that, it will contemplate how much of that funding goes to some of the aspects and developer functions that may be more active in these direct-build pieces versus those proposals that come in through the portal, which we spoke about a little bit, and request construction financing.

Build Canada Homes will need to balance the different parts of its function and how that relates back to its capital funding.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

When a private developer gets a piece of land and says it's going to build a 20-storey apartment building for $35 million.... I've worked on a lot of government projects. A private builder will say its project is going to be $35 million, and ultimately, that's a hard stop in private industry. There are always contingencies for cost overruns built into the project. In my experience on government projects, it's just writing cheques because this and that are going to be extra. I've seen projects nearly double in cost.

What does Build Canada Homes have for built-in checks and balances so that the government isn't taken advantage of? I have seen that in certain situations with builders and developers. Also, how will it protect the taxpayers' money and keep those projects within the specified budget?

10:25 a.m.

Director General, Housing Policy Branch, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

Lindsay Boldt

This comes back to the transparency and reporting Build Canada Homes will be required to do on how it is spending that money, that initial capitalization. It will need to report.

Right now, it is operating as a special operating agency under the Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, similar to how the department reports to Parliament on the activities and the expenditures. That provides an opportunity for Build Canada Homes to explain what the costs have looked like for its various activities.

This legislation proposes that Build Canada Homes would transition to a Crown corporation model; there is a reporting requirement or framework that aligns with the Crown corporation model, and I'm happy to get into some of those details. It would also ensure that there's transparency and there is an opportunity, from an audit and reporting perspective, for transparency to parliamentarians and Canadians on the activities that Build Canada Homes undertakes and that the associated financial statements and expenditures are also shared.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Is that a hard stop, though? You can say that a project started at $35 million, and now it's $40 million or $45 million. Even though it's being reported, it isn't really a hard stop, and I think that's fairly significant.

As I mentioned, when you're dealing with a private builder and the project is getting near that point, the private builder will usually say, “We're going to buy cheaper flooring,” or make adjustments to stay within that particular project's budget. On government projects, they don't do that. They keep writing cheques.

I understand the piece about the reporting and accountability, but a lot of times what happens is they're accountable to the cost overrun, but there aren't any checks and balances. Is there anything in there to prevent that from happening, other than reporting and accountability, and to say there is a hard stop?

10:25 a.m.

Director General, Housing Policy Branch, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

Lindsay Boldt

I'll start, and I think J.-S. may have more to add.

In this case, Build Canada Homes will need to make a trade-off when it thinks about that $13-billion capital allocation. If it starts to lean in on the developer side, that will pull from what is a limited resource and would then need to be offset by decisions about construction financing that is being offered.

Build Canada Homes will need to closely monitor the extent to which the different functions and each of those buckets come into play with its operations and its forecast expenditures.

10:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Strategic Policy and Integration Sector, Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities

Jean-Sébastien Langelier

In terms of incentives, it will need to manage the envelope it has with the capitalization that will be provided by the bill or by acts of Parliament. It will need to look at the risks and potential benefits of projects and manage a portfolio of projects. It may need to make its choices and investment decisions based on that; this is how the model would work.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm good; I'll cede the floor.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Reynolds, for the line of questioning, which was informative.

There was no unanimous consent on grouping them, so I'm going to begin clause-by-clause consideration with clauses 2 to 33, as there were no amendments to any of these.

(Clauses 2 to 33 agreed to on division)

Ms. Kwan, go ahead.

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

On clause 33, the NDP is proposing some amendments. Noting that, while Bill C-20 includes a statutory reporting requirement to Parliament, the NDP amendment proposes an annual report to Parliament concerning the Build Canada Homes' tangible progress and success towards its statutory purposes. The proposed reporting would require that Parliament receive yearly targets for the upcoming year, as well as progress outcomes measured against the previous year's targets.

The metrics for these targets and progress reports would include the number of new units built with Build Canada Homes financing, the municipality and province in which they are built, their affordability level—meaning, the dollar amount the federal government's contributing—the number of units created leveraging federal lands and their affordability level.

The amendment proposes that the report to Parliament define affordable housing as “housing is considered to be affordable if a household's total housing costs do not exceed 30% of its gross income”, without prescribing what it should be in the legislation itself.

Part 2(a) of the amendment would require reporting on the type of housing created by population served, i.e., transitional, single-family, seniors, students, etc. Part 2(b) would add reporting on the use of the federal lands. Part 2(c) would require that the report use and establish baselines and criteria to measure the outcomes. Part 2(d) would require that the report indicate the proportion of public and non-market housing in Canada's total housing supply, broken down by province, territory and municipality.

Part 3 requires that the report include national aggregate point-in-time homelessness counts, including regional breakdowns of point-in-time counts, including northern and remote communities; an appendix benchmarking current data against the prior 10 years; an appendix using all the longitudinal data on the point-in-time counts to establish a forecast of counts five years into the future; and disaggregated data on the point-in-time counts, insofar as possible, by age, gender identity, indigenous identity, veteran status and disability status.

It would also determine the national demographics of need, based on a definition of core housing need that includes considering affordability, adequacy and suitability, including overcrowding and security of tenure.

Lastly, the report would provide a housing insecurity index that tracks overcrowded housing in the territories, using a defined threshold and appropriate metrics, broken down by territory and including remote communities.

Mr. Chair, I will simply say that I think it's really important as this new entity is established that there's transparency and for the Canadian public to know what the targets are and how it is reaching those targets, under those various different metrics that I've outlined. It's also important that they have a baseline of measurement.

I note, also, that this amendment was crafted in collaboration with the member for Nunavut before she crossed over to the Liberals. Presumably she would have brought this up with the Liberal caucus, and I hope to see support on this amendment.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

The amendment moved by Ms. Kwan is NDP-1. It is in order.

Madame Desrochers, on the amendment.

Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC

On the amendment, Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

I really want to thank my colleague, Ms. Kwan, for bringing forward this amendment. I know of all of her work on transparency and accountability. Transparency and accountability to Parliament, and to Canadians, are fundamental principles that we support.

However, I want to say that Build Canada Homes, like all Crown corporations, will be subject to strict annual reporting, audit and transparency requirements under existing law. Under part X of the Financial Administration Act, Crown corporations are required to table corporate plans, which are multi-year plans, outlining business activities, investments, mandates, strategic objectives, key initiatives, risk management approaches and expected financial results. Those are very comprehensive documents that are required by law to be provided every year.

Summaries of the plans are tabled annually in Parliament, providing forward-looking information on priorities, performance, targets and resource allocation for parliamentarians and Canadians.

Annual operating and capital budgets are also tabled. They detail activities, investments, revenues, expenses, major capital projects and projected borrowings. This is how we will ensure transparency to Parliament regarding the use of public funds. That is already part of existing legislation.

Finally, the annual financial statements and reports are submitted to the responsible ministers and tabled in Parliament. That is already part of the legislative framework and responsibilities. These financial statements are audited by the Auditor General of Canada to ensure accountability and transparency regarding financial results and performance.

Therefore, the objectives of this amendment are already achieved within the existing legislative framework. From the outset, as a Crown agency, Build Canada Homes will be fully accountable to Parliament, must be transparent about its activities and results, and will be subject to oversight by our committees. That's what Canadians expect, and that's what the law already provides for.

So, when we vote, we will oppose this amendment.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Is there any further discussion?

I have Ms. Kwan and then Ms. Goodridge.

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

If the committee could indulge me for a minute to respond to the government's proposal, I understand that there would be annual reports. However, this specific amendment is very deliberate in the information being sought in terms of accountability. In the overall annual reports, sometimes some of the information is incorporated; oftentimes, it isn't.

We haven't seen one, so I can't predict, but for certainty in terms of legislation for the creation of this new entity, I think it would be important for this amendment to be adopted as part of parliamentary reporting to parliamentarians.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I need to suspend for a few moments for a health break.

The meeting is suspended.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Okay, we were on the amendment by Ms. Kwan, which is NDP-1.

I'm seeing no further discussion. Shall NDP-1 carry?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Since NDP-1 is not carried, there's no new clause 33.1.

We'll continue on, then, with clause-by-clause.

(Clauses 34 to 51 agreed to on division)

Shall the short title carry?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

An hon. member

On division.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Shall the title carry?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

An hon. member

On division.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Shall the bill carry?

Some hon. members

Let's have a recorded division.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

(Bill C-20 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Shall the chair report the bill to the House?

Some hon. members

Agreed.