Evidence of meeting #10 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was finland.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Liisa Jaakonsaari  Chairperson, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament
Jari Vilén  Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament
Johannes Koskinen  Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament
Maija Perho  Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament
Aulis Ranta-Muotio  Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament
Antero Kekkonen  Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

5:50 p.m.

Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Jari Vilén

This is the situation we have.

The question you put forward.... I think the challenge in Finland is the climate and language. Who would come to work in Finland? It's a very functional society, a very efficient society, very transparent, of which we are proud, but the language is very difficult, so we don't really have a genuine place for people who come. We have mostly Estonians, but Estonia is a very small country that needs its own working population.

These are more or less the questions we have on our agenda at the moment.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

What is the population of Finland?

5:50 p.m.

Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Jari Vilén

Five million.

5:50 p.m.

Chairperson, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Liisa Jaakonsaari

It's 5.3 million, and we have calculated that a little bit more than one million Finns reside abroad. We know that in Canada--

5:50 p.m.

A voice

In 100 years.

5:50 p.m.

Chairperson, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Liisa Jaakonsaari

In 100 years, of course.

But Canada has quite a big Finnish population. Some of our relatives are in Canada.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Do you have a younger population or an aging population?

5:50 p.m.

Chairperson, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Liisa Jaakonsaari

Learning about this issue is one--as Jari mentioned, in nearly all ratings, as far as competitiveness is concerned, standards of schools, we are number one in the world. But we receive very, very little foreign investment. One researcher said it's due to an aging population, due to demography. Foreign investors think this nation has no big future, has no prospects because of demographics. That's one reason we want to have more immigrants.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Madam Deschamps, were you finished?

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Yes.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Bill, go ahead, please.

5:50 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome--although I have to start by saying that we also claim Santa Claus, so we may have to work on where Santa Claus really lives.

I'm a member of the New Democratic Party, which is the social democratic/ democratic socialist party in Canada. I represent a riding in a suburb of Vancouver in British Columbia. My riding has about a 50% immigrant and refugee population, which is pretty typical of many of the ridings in the Vancouver area.

In my area, the largest immigrant population group is Chinese, either from the People's Republic, from Hong Kong or from Taiwan. So about 30% of the folks in my riding speak Chinese, either Cantonese or Mandarin. The next largest group is Korean, and then there are some European and Central American groups after that. There is a significant newcomer population in the area, which presents certain challenges.

It means that as an elected representative I have to have a communications strategy that incorporates some communications in other languages outside of the official languages of Canada. My office staff speak a total of seven other languages including Cantonese, Mandarin, Urdu, Sindhi, Punjabi, and Hindi, because there is a South Asian community associated there as well. Having that kind of language capacity is also important so they can assist people who don't have English or French language skills yet, largely in dealing with immigration difficulties.

Settlement issues are a huge problem: how you integrate someone into Canadian society and the resources that are available to do that.

Right now there are large inconsistencies across Canada with regard to that. There is some dispute about what the numbers are, but it looks like Quebec gets about $4,000 per immigrant to do settlement work and language training; Ontario gets about $3,800, or will get that soon under the terms of a new agreement it has with the federal government; and British Columbia gets probably around $1,000 per immigrant. So there is a wide variation in what the federal government transfers to the provinces, because the provinces make these decisions.

Those things have a dramatic effect on people's ability to be part of Canadian society and the attachment they feel to Canadian society. I think your question about the events of last weekend may be one of the issues we need to deal with in that context.

We know that the people who have the greatest difficulty settling are often adults who have come without English or French language skills, and teenagers who come. Younger children adapt very easily through the school system and learn very quickly, but those groups present particular challenges in all of that.

It's interesting to hear you describe the issues that Finland is facing, because they are exactly the same issues Canada is facing. Our population is aging. By the middle of the next decade we expect that all job growth will come solely from immigration. By the mid-2020s we expect all of our population growth to come solely from immigration. That is the point at which it becomes a question of our social programs and how we pay for them. We need that immigrant group to help us maintain the kinds of social programs that have meant so much to us in Canada. I think that's a real issue for us.

We are starting now to talk about a Canadian diaspora. For the first time there are Canadians living in other parts of the world in large numbers, particularly in Hong Kong and China. We're talking about folks who came and either had an experience that wasn't as positive as they expected, but became Canadian citizens and then went home to their country of origin, or, because economic conditions improved, returned to work in their homeland and may come back to Canada at some point. Planning for how that will work becomes an issue, but it is just not on our agenda yet.

We may get a bunch of retirees in 20 or 30 years, people who decide to retire back in Canada. How do we accommodate that movement back?

You asked about whether immigration should be work-based or have a social base to it. That is something we have struggled with in this committee. Right now our economic immigrants get here on a point system that tries to get the best and the brightest. That was the intent. So we give people points in our application process to get here, recognizing their work experience and their education, but then they get here and find out they can't work using that experience or that education. That's causing lots of anger and frustration in our system.

We have settlement workers now who have to have security because people are so angry about their experience of coming to Canada. So there's a disconnect between our application process and the reality of working in Canada, which is causing some significant problems. The recognition of international credentials is a piece of that.

Touring across the country last year, the committee discovered that often the happiest immigrants are people who come through family reunification, who came because they had families here. They don't have the same work or income expectations. They'll take a job that may not be the greatest job in the world, but because they're with family, they're happy and they have their social network in place. Their adaptation is often much better because of this.

It's interesting that Canada has talked about an official multiculturalism policy. We have determinedly not wanted to be the melting pot that the United States talks about being, in which you become part of a more homogenous culture. There's still some struggle around that in Canada.

In my constituency, it's more likely that you'll have a big Chinese new year's celebration than you will the calendar new year. That's a real change. I did more celebration of the Chinese new year this year than I did of the calendar new year, but that's very typical of the atmosphere now in my riding. There are some people who welcome that and there are other people who resist it, seeing it as an unwelcome change. So there are some social tensions around that policy, but overall it is working right now.

You wouldn't visit my area and come away with an impression that there was overt racism, dramatic incidents of racism, or real institutionalized discrimination in significant ways. That's working its way through. There's lots of intermarriage happening, so the nature of our community is changing through these means as well.

That's probably more than five minutes' worth of rambling, but anyway....

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We're not on any big time limits here today.

Barry, did you have a comment you want to make?

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Yes, two or three things.

First of all, I want to welcome you here to Canada today and welcome you to our committee. Only two weeks ago I was in Taiwan as part of a Canadian delegation, and I had the opportunity to meet with legislators in Taiwan and to share experiences. I think it's very valuable, so I appreciate seeing you here today.

In terms of the specific point that Jari raised about what happened this weekend, my sense is that it will not change public policy in Canada. I think we will discuss security issues and processes and how we deal with immigrants, but I don't foresee any change; we are committed to this course of action. As Bill and others have said, we are a nation of immigrants. There are hiccups along the way, but I don't think it will cause a serious reassessment of immigration in Canada. We debate whether there will be 250,000 or 300,000 immigrants in a year; I think that's what we are committed to.

I appreciate that it is quite a challenge for you starting something new, or a new program essentially. On the other hand, sometimes having a clean sheet of paper to work with is an opportunity to see what other countries have done and to try to steal some of their good ideas, and maybe avoid some of the problems.

I would make two or three observations. Unlike Bill's or Blair's ridings, I come from a rural area, with a largely anglophone background and smaller numbers of immigrants. I think one of the challenges we have in Canada today is that a large percentage of immigrants do go to our large cities. We actually have parts of rural Canada that want immigrants, including where I live in central Ontario, but even more so in northern Ontario. These mining and forestry communities were populated only 30 or 50 years ago by many Finnish, Italian, and Polish people, who settled there in the 1940s and 1950s.

So we have rural parts of Canada that are trying to figure out how to attract immigrants to their communities. Weather is also an issue here, as most people come from a warmer place than Canada, so trying to attract them into northern Canada, where the climate is harsher, is also a challenge.

In our large cities we are dealing with the immigrant flow coming in, which is welcome, but it brings in some issues with it, and in rural areas we're actually trying to figure out how to get more immigrants to come to these places.

I have a couple more comments. On the issue of whether it's essentially an economic or a social enterprise, I think it's both; I think there are two sides to the same coin. However you start, you very quickly will be into the other, because you're dealing with people. And even if you implement a strategy or a program that's largely economic-based, I think social issues are part and parcel of it, so you may as well deal with them up front.

These are not suggestions, but just some ideas. You could ask questions about what countries in the world have large numbers of people who might be interested in coming to Finland and how well suited they are. Climate is an obvious issue, but as you say, language is another one. Possibly, rather than trying to draw your immigrants from 100 countries in some proportional way, maybe you should look at or target a handful of countries that you have the resources to actually establish a strong relationship with. It would also allow you to build fairly quickly a population of new immigrants, a critical mass of people, who would quickly create their own social institutions, whether it's family or churches or community groups. In a small place, you may find that actually focusing on a few countries initially, and trying to establish links, might work better than a system where you essentially set up criteria and five billion people around the world are eligible to apply to come to Finland.

I don't know. These are just ideas. As I said, that's not the way we do it in Canada, but it might be something interesting for you to consider.

I understand that Finnish is part of a Hungarian family of languages that is spread around, but I'm not sure....

6 p.m.

A witness

[Inaudible--Editor]

6 p.m.

Conservative

Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

Maybe there is no opportunity there, but I guess I would say that you should choose to view your situation as an opportunity and be realistic.

The last point I would like to make is that I would encourage you to be proactive, decide what you want to do and then push forward to make it happen. As I said, one of the comments I hear in Canada—and I'm relatively new to this file—is that I'm not sure we're as proactive as we could be, theoretically. But our program is so large and under way, I think we're doing what we need to do, which is dealing with people who show up at our door saying, we'd like to come to Canada. But you don't have that situation right now, so you might be able to channel that a little bit better.

Anyway, those are some of my views.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Good. Thank you.

Is there anyone else?

Madame Folco.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

I'd like to welcome you as well. Like my two colleagues who spoke French before me, I represent a riding in the province of Quebec. However, unlike my two colleagues, I'm a member of the Liberal Party; I'm therefore not a member of a separatist party.

However, I've done a lot of work in immigration for a very long time and I have a few comments to make.

First of all, let me disagree totally with my colleague, Barry Devolin.

We had an immigration policy in the 19th century by which we chose the countries from which we accepted immigrants. These were, by and large, the British Isles. Then we expanded that and went into northern Europe. Then we expanded and went into southern Europe, after the Second World War, and so on and so forth.

We are now at the point where we have a point system based on how old the candidates are--I am sure other people have explained this to you--how many young children the candidates have, their level of education, and so on.

What we have tried to do--whether we've achieved it or not, I don't know--is make our immigration policy as free of racial or religious prejudice as possible.

If I may be so bold as to say this, Mr. Devolin, the danger in choosing a country is that you might choose a country you think is very much like yours in terms of culture, economics, and so on, and then you're going to be absolutely criticized because you're not choosing from another country. That is the first comment I would like to make.

The second comment is about the importance of settlement programs. When I was with immigration in the Quebec government, one of the things we worked very hard on was the welcoming society, what we call in French la societé d'accueil, the people who receive the immigrants, that is, the homegrown families, and what we ought to be doing and what information we should give them so they see immigration as a plus, not just a plus for the country but a plus for them personally, so they know how far they should go to meet the immigrants halfway. We are always saying that the immigrant must modify his ways in order to fit into our society. That is true to some extent, of course, but society--and I think it was my colleague Bill Siksay who said this--also has to change. It can be a very dangerous thing for some families who are more traditional. That is a big problem.

In my riding, I have a lot of immigrants from the Near East and the Middle East. This would mean the Maghrib, Algeria mostly, and then Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and so on. That brings in another problem, and that is the problem of religion and its role in society and its role in schools and in Canada. I think it is the same in your country. We tended, until fairly recently, to have lay institutions that were free of any slant toward one religion or another. But there have been demands from various religious groups--not only from the Muslims, but it does include Muslims--to be able to keep a certain number of their customs within these non-religious institutions.

That is a big question. It is a question that France has had to deal with, and Britain as well. And we are dealing with it.

I think that contrary to what France, Belgium, and Britain are living through, one of the pluses your country has is that it is not a former colonial country. France and particularly Britain, and Belgium, with the Congo, had to live through that period, and are still living through it, in which the people who live there feel that France or Britain or whatever owes them something because of the wealth that was taken out of the colonies for centuries.

You don't have to worry about that. This is one thing that we Canadians don't have to worry about. That is one reason why we do well in our relationships with countries in the developing world, because we don't have that history with them.

I could talk forever about immigration. It is my favourite subject.

As far as the consequences of the terrorist arrests last weekend, I agree with my colleagues. I don't think it is going to change anything very much. But where it is going to really hurt us is in our relationship with the United States, because the Government of the United States has always been convinced, ever since September 11, that all the terrorists came through Canada and it was our fault.

I've heard Mrs. Clinton say time and time again that people were going through our border like it was a sieve. Now it's going to hurt us even more in our relationship with the United States. What we're trying to do is to keep our border with the United States as open as we possibly can. It's obvious that this is going to be an element that is going to close the border much more than we would like to.

Those are the comments I would make for now.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Madam Folco.

Nina, and Ed, and anyone else who wishes to raise a hand....

Okay, Bill.

Nina, please.

June 5th, 2006 / 6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all.

My name is Nina Grewal. I'm a member of Parliament from the beautiful province of British Columbia, and I am a member of the Conservative Party. My riding has mostly immigrants.

I would like to know how your immigration policy works. Could you please give us an update on that? How many immigrate to Finland every year? Is there a family class? How much time does it take for family unification cases? Does family immigration take more time than business immigration? How many categories do you have in immigration? Do you have a parliamentary channel?

These are so many questions.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I would imagine that you're still in the process of developing your immigration policy. You wouldn't have a specific immigration policy that you could share with us at this point in time, would you?

6:10 p.m.

Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Jari Vilén

I could easily answer your question about the foreign population in Finland. The foreign population in Finland is 90,000 out of 5 million people. Out of the 90,000, half are mostly from Russia or ex-Soviet Union countries. They are more or less coming for love; they come to marry. Usually, it's Russian ladies and Finnish men--that's the combination.

But we don't yet have a policy about how to actively recruit. We don't have traditions. We are looking to the neighbouring countries at the moment, which means the Russians, the Estonians, the Baltic States. Those have the most potential. We have an economic gap between the possibilities and prosperity of Finland and the potentials and challenges they have in those countries.

Estonia is a marvellous example. Their language and culture are the closest to ours. Their economy is thriving, and there are only one million citizens. We can expect to have tens of thousands of people coming from there. But even if they came, they wouldn't stay. They might come to work for five days and go home every weekend. It takes 18 minutes to fly from Helsinki to Tallinn by helicopter.

We actually don't have countries that are close to us. Therefore, we have to look in every single other country in the world. The only country in the European Union at the moment that has a surplus population is Poland. Every other country is losing population. Italy and Finland are losing population the fastest because of the aging population. In Poland, they don't have educated and trained people. Because of the previous systems and the legacy of communism, they have surplus population in the countryside. They're a very Catholic population, and this actually saved the country. But their surplus population is not trained and educated for the challenges of the future.

So we go to Asia, like everybody else. I'll give you an example. Germany tried to recruit about 6,000 engineers for their companies. They couldn't get more than 2,000 to come to Germany, which is a very attractive country--language, culture, well-based. They got only 2,000. Finland, which as I said is in a very remote corner of the European Union, is a very nice, functioning, safe society, but it doesn't have a similar kind of network that would assist them in coming here.

I'm saying there are political consequences, because we do not have a tradition. There are always parties and politicians who are saying.... For instance, I come from the northern-most constituency of Finland, which has an unemployment rate of 18%. If I say that I need to have 1,000 foreign workers come from Asia to Lapland, it's over for me.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I see your point.

6:15 p.m.

Member, Delegation of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Finnish Parliament

Maija Perho

May I say a few words?

One problem in practice in Finland now is that we have immigrants who are very skilled and highly educated, and they are unemployed or doing jobs that don't demand any education. The first thing we need to do is try to train these people to get better jobs.

The most crucial question is on elementary language education or training. This is one thing I want to know about. How do you organize language education? I've heard that it depends on the province. For us, it's not very well organized. We must change the way we organize this education.

As a member of the EU, we didn't open our borders to new EU members when they became members at the beginning of 2004. I think that was a mistake. It was a political decision that we made in Parliament, but it was very much debated. When we evaluated it afterwards, it was a mistake. We have now lifted it. All parties agreed, if I remember correctly.

I really want to know about integration in the sense of education. How do you re-educate people who already have professions?

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I think Madam Folco could make a very significant contribution to that question.