Evidence of meeting #19 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Right.
So Mr. Ellis was appointed prior to 2004. He was appointed in 2000, correct? So he would have come through that process?
10 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Prior to the recent incident, you said, in 2004, when the new process was put in place, those principles were retroactively applied to those who were already on the board.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
So those competencies were applied to Mr. Ellis, and he must have passed--
10 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
--or he would have been terminated at that time.
10 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
Yes.
I should qualify here that I don't have the power to terminate; I just have the power to recommend.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Right. But did you recommend that he be terminated when he went through that process?
10 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
No, I didn't. It was done prior to my arrival.
In fairness to the individual, he had passed the nine competencies.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Right. But in the broader question of reappointments, I think it's clear that the process of how you get on the board has changed. I think we would all agree that if it's more qualification, more objective, that's a good thing, as opposed to the murky process that existed before that.
Is it not also fair to say, though, that the government has some obligation for extra due diligence in terms of those who were appointed initially under that process and who now are coming up for reappointment? I mean, if this conversation with Mr. Ellis hadn't been recorded, I presume his name would have been coming forward in the near future for reappointment.
10 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
But I would distinguish two things here. In terms of ethics behaviour like the kind we just saw, I don't have a process that would have captured that. The person had a good file. He was a good member, to my knowledge and to the knowledge of everyone, in terms of what he did. So I don't want to prejudge.
The Governor in Council appointees belong to the government. The government could abolish what we do now. It's the government's prerogative.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I think there's a sense that in the case of Mr. Ellis, probably his political background was what actually got him on the board in the first place. I think we all agree that we've moved beyond that.
As my specific question, do you not think it's incumbent on the minister and the government now to take extra due diligence before they either appoint new members or reappoint existing members? And if that means, in the short run, there's a bit of a shortage of staff, do you not think that's the appropriate course of action as opposed to moving more quickly?
10 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I think it's the government's prerogative. I have no opinion to offer there.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Welcome and thank you for being here today.
I would like to ask you a few questions to follow up on Ms. Folco's remarks.
I would like to know whether the current government consulted you regarding the setting up of an appeal's division and if so, when. I would also like to know if you share your predecessor's views on the appeal's division.
10 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I will try to answer your question as honestly and directly as possible.
The government is consulting me over how much time the procedure would take should any appeals be lodged in light of the legislation, how much it would cost and what sort of mechanism, methodology and recruitment process would be put in place. They are the types of issues the government consulted me over. I actually think that I discussed the time and money this would require at my last appearance. Of course, my opinion is sought on this type of issue because we are the ones who will be called upon to manage the appeals system.
As far as determining whether an appeals procedure is relevant or not, I do not think it is the role of the chair of a tribunal. I think that it is more a political decision. So, it would be up to the Deputy Minister or the Minister to make a decision.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Could the current shortage of commissioners be used to justify holding off on the establishment of an appeals division?
10 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
That is a hypothetical question. I can only answer concrete questions.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Let me come back to the protocol issue.
Does the protocol apply to the PRRA officer and to the officer reviewing applications on humanitarian and compassionate grounds?
Could you give us an idea of the number of files being processed? I think there is a backlog.
Do prosecutors and attorneys often make complaints about commissioners requesting that another commissioner review their client's application? And on what grounds would such a request be made?
10:05 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
As I said earlier, the protocol provides the framework under which members of the public's complaints about the alleged behaviour of a commissioner may be dealt with. This does not involve any review of an application or its merit.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Is the PRRA officer, or in other words the person conducting the pre-removal risk assessment, subject to a protocol or a code of ethics?
10:05 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I could not say. We are talking about a departmental employee.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
What system exists when someone files a complaint?
We know that 99.36% of applications are denied. Is there some way of appealing these decisions?
10:05 a.m.
Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
I do not know how the department works, but I am familiar with the mandate you are describing and the duties therein. However, I really do not know if there is actually a complaint system because that is not within my purview and has nothing to do with the protocol I submitted to you.
