Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[Wai Young]

The difference, as I was saying, was due to the federal-provincial immigration agreements—

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes.

[Wai Young]

—and the fact that in B.C. only 47% of the funds that B.C. receives actually go to direct settlement funding. Therefore, the other 53% of funding goes into general revenues. For example, those funds then can build a road in B.C., or be put into Whistler, or whatever. Because those dollars are never fenced in, as we say, they are therefore not specifically dedicated to providing those programs and services to immigrants in B.C. Therefore the wait lists expand as the numbers increase, as the demand increases in B.C. As you know, Vancouver is a very choice destination for new immigrants and refugees; therefore the wait lists get longer and longer.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I see.

Are there any particular challenges involved in the settlement of refugees as compared to new immigrants? Could you please explain that?

[Wai Young]

Absolutely. I think the settlement and integration of new immigrants and of refugees are very different, based on, obviously, the education, where the person comes from, and whether they have family and friends at their destination. That has been shown in many studies to be a critical factor in settlement and integration. So those critical factors are very important. Access to immediate programs and services is very important.

If you are a government-sponsored refugee, for example, and you are only government-sponsored here in Canada for up to a year of programs and services, if you have to wait for eight months on a wait list to get English language training, then obviously your integration and your settlement services are going to be drastically slowed down. That is a big challenge and a big hurdle for that particular group of people. So you can see how this plays out in terms of having repercussions all the way down the line.

The other issue, one of the reasons we're asking for this study on refugee and immigrant children and youth, is again that their needs are very different. The refugee youth, some of whom, as Fariborz was saying earlier, have lived in camps all their lives, have no frame of reference for what sitting in a classroom is like and what that would mean, or anything. So for us as a society to have that expectation and for them to be thrown into those classrooms without some kind of specialized programming and support services, and so on, is really not going to provide us with the outcomes that we would want as a country in successful integration and settlement.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have a few minutes left.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I just want to follow up on that one question that Nina asked and you responded to, Ms. Young, on the idea of those provincial agreements on immigration. Is that going to be applying now to the new funding in particular?

[Wai Young]

Thank you for asking that question.

We as a sector, of course, and particularly our B.C. colleagues, are extremely concerned about that. In fact, AMSSA, which is the umbrella organization in B.C., has requested a meeting with the minister who is responsible for immigration there, Wally Oppal, as well as with the finance minister, Carole Taylor. They have declined meeting with them. In fact, I happen to know Wally personally, but anyway, he has said they're not going to address that question. So I think that's a really big indicator as to where that's going.

In addition, if I may follow up on Mr. Karygiannis's question, there are different systems for how agencies access funding across the country as well, which is what we hope is going to be addressed in this study too.

Let me give you an example. In B.C., the immigration ministry has implemented an RFP process for how those settlement agencies get funded. Let me describe to you how completely devastating that is, because you're not selling widgets here. It's not like an RFP process where we are going to be buying x boxes of paper, and therefore who is going to provide the cheaper service or be more effective? What has happened in B.C., in fact, through this RFP process is that agencies are being asked to compete to provide those programs and services. What you are doing then is setting up a community to move from a collaborative, partnership, supportive model—because, believe me, as a non-profit agency, providing settlement services, you need as much partnership and collaboration within those communities as you can get—to one now where the government is saying we want you guys to compete, to bid on the ability to get funded for these services. So it is in fact ripping the communities apart, ripping the agencies apart, because now it's a competitive bid process. In certain areas and in certain federal government departments and programs, we think that is a completely inappropriate mechanism to fund settlement services.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, thank you, Ms. Young.

Madame Deschanps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a specific question. I am the M.P. for a very large area in the province of Quebec: the Laurentian area, north of Montreal. You are saying that 80% of immigrants, refugees or newcomers are always going tothree large centres: Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

What could the government do to encourage newcomers or refugees to go to areas like mine where there are very few resources and no immigration officer close to the community to welcome and support them? People from another culture must have an incredible willpower and courage to settle in areas where they are greatly needed. You just need to think about the farming community where there is a huge succession issue. These people could probably be an added value for our area, but they have no access to services.

Newcomers must also learn a new language. In most cases, they don't speak French or English. They must then be supported by community agencies that have very few or no resources. They are directed towards literacy groups. Yet, we know that the government is intending to cut into these resources. Newcomers must then depend on voluntary agencies.

Do you think that the government could put citizenship and immigration officers in our Service Canada offices? These officers could go there as required to help people who would like to settle in our area.

[Wai Young]

Thank you so much for that question, and it's a pleasure to be here today.

One of the things we are aware of happening in Quebec is that, again, they have not had their level of settlement funding increased for many years. In fact, some of the agencies are operating with a very weak infrastructure, as you have of course noted, as well as very old equipment. Some of the computers they're using are so outdated they can't even download the current.... That is a source of frustration and inefficiencies.

One of the members of our organization is La Table, which is the provincial umbrella organization, as you know, for Quebec. And they're very concerned as well in terms of how these new settlement funds are going to be applied to Quebec. Apparently they're under negotiations now, so they don't have a sum that has been established.

Secondly, the Quebec agencies really need a lot of support and an injection of resources. By that I'm not just saying money--money is not everything. However, money can supply certain things like efficiencies, things like training, as you mentioned. Earlier on we talked about various programs that can be expanded, I believe, to make smaller centres more successful in attracting and retaining newcomers, such as the sponsorship agreement holders.

We saw in the 1990s, with the Vietnamese boat people, a huge success story in Canada, where immigrants did go to many smaller centres across Canada and were successfully retained. I can name so many communities across Canada that now have a small Vietnamese community of people who have now lived there for 20 and 30 years, and I think that you all can as well. Why did that happen? Why are we not learning from that?

This is partly why we as an organization are coming to you and saying we need to study what's happening in our smaller centres so that we can learn from those things and capture that knowledge, because we know it works. We know it has worked here in this country. We know we do have programs in place like the sponsorship agreement holders that we can use as mechanisms to help these smaller centres. So it's a matter of developing more of a national approach to working towards this.

Earlier on I mentioned the fact that we are planning to work with the Canadian Federation of Municipalities. This is obviously an issue and a concern with them. So if we were able to get resources to develop a national approach on this, I think it would be a very strong initiative for Canada to undertake to help smaller communities like yours.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Did you have a wrap-up question? You're at about five minutes there, so one fast question will do it, sure.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

The government is a very large employer for all kind of professions. Could it hire more people from these minorities?

[Wai Young]

I think with the population aging, with people retiring and the huge succession issue the government will be facing, they may not have a choice. However, absolutely, the government can definitely be doing more. I don't know where the employment equity program is. I know that the glass ceiling certainly still exists. When you go to most major management, whether it's the cities, the government, or the provincial governments, wherever they are, some of those key jobs and the more stable well-paying jobs are obviously still going to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Komarnicki, and Mr. Siksay.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

To finish on the last question I asked and didn't get an answer to, it was particularly with respect to refugee youth and the youth and young people, in particular, in terms of the programs that perhaps ought to be there and aren't there. Maybe you could elaborate on what you'd like to see and what you see the deficiencies are and some of the problems facing that culture in that area--whoever wants to take that question.

[Wai Young]

Again, we know that our immigrant and refugee youth are facing tremendous pressures and facing tremendous differences in our 21st century culture in the achievements and the things that are expected of them. In addition to that, when you combine that with the cultural expectations, let me give you one example of my own culture. I'm Chinese. I'm in the Chinese culture. It's very much expected that one seeks professional training, education, and some kind of profession. Well, in Canada, as we know, the trades are an excellent profession. You could get paid well. You have a lot of flexibility. This is not something that culturally, within my culture, parents know they should direct their children toward, whereas it's something that, frankly, within the Canadian system would be a very positive thing.

When you look at what's happening within different cultural groups and their knowledge and expertise of what professions are even available in Canada, and what would provide a good income and a solid job for their children, there isn't enough awareness in certain first and second generation communities. That's one thing.

Secondly, as we mentioned earlier, a lot of refugee youth come with having experienced much more trauma than we've seen before in the past. That itself requires specialized programs and services, and I don't think we need to go into the detail of that.

When you combine that along with the large numbers that are happening in Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, and Toronto, then you're beginning to see cracks in the system. The reason I'm putting it that way is because then you have a Canadian school board system that is very used to providing the kinds of services and the kinds of teaching styles, etc., that they've been providing for the last 20 to 30 years.

The Canadian School Boards Association itself has this summer recently released a report on what they see as being the needs within the system, because they see this as an issue as well.

What I think needs to happen at the same time is to have settlement agencies across Canada busy working away with their local school boards--the Vancouver School Board, the Richmond School Board, the Hamilton one--to develop programs and services to assist and support these children. But it's still very much of a piecemeal approach. This is sort of happening in some communities and not happening in others. For example, if the school board is not open to that approach, not open to working in partnership, there's no directive that says they must. Therefore, some programs and services may not happen.

What we're calling for in our request for this study is some baseline information. We need to know what is going on out there in Canada for our immigrant and refugee children and youth, because these are our children; it's the next generation. These are our future citizens and taxpayers and voters, etc. If we're not doing a good job in terms of positive outcomes for them currently, with the kinds of resources, technology, information, studies, and researches that we have available to us, then I don't think we're doing as well as we can.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

There's no question that probably the same issues apply not just to youth and the young culture, but to others who are affected. Particular communities may have issues. It has become more random and depends on the involvement of a particular community. There's perhaps a need for some national voice or some uniformity in what's happening across the country, because the problems are probably similar. They just need to be addressed in a constructive way. Of course, your settlement agencies are across the country, so you're in a unique position to be able to tap into what's necessary.

Do you have a database structure or a computer structure or an integration of infrastructure amongst not only the provinces, but the sub-agencies in each of the provinces on the ground? Do you have that kind of a network in place? Are you going toward it? It seems to me that you're the logical central point to tackle this issue and this problem.

[Wai Young]

Thank you.

We have struck a virtual information management committee that is looking at developing a sector-wide information management system, because we do believe this is critical and very important for this day and age.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

We have given you an extra $307 million for the first time in ten years.

[Wai Young]

Thank you, Mr. Kormarnicki. We'll be writing some letters, I'm sure.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

But carry on. Don't let that bother you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Your time is up, so I'll have to cut you off there.

Are you finished your answer, Ms. Young?

[Wai Young]

If I may just say one more thing, in addition to the study that we're requesting from the standing committee, we are also wanting to work on a national approach for refugee and immigrant children and youth. By “national approach”, what we mean is that right now this is a group that has fallen between the cracks. There's no single view on how we, as a nation, are providing programs and services to increase the outcomes of this group.

We are going to the different departments that have some kind of funding or resources or mandate for children and youth, and we're working with them to identify how we can all come together in a national dialogue that we plan to host in the spring of 2008, to develop national policy programs and services for specifically this. We're meeting with the Departments of Justice, Health, Heritage, Immigration, of course, and any other major departments, in the hope that we can look at the various aspects of this. As you know, youth get themselves into trouble, so the Department of Justice is involved. Health is of a concern, as are all of these things. So we are working on this at a macro level.

Thank you.