Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 10th, 2006

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

People who have already paid their fees will get a refund.

Concerning the process, I'm just trying to recall. I think what we were doing was that people who are in Canada would receive a letter, if I recall correctly. If you've paid your fee but not landed, when you come to the port of entry you will receive a form, and you can apply for your refund. And if you applied within Canada, then you will be sent a refund directly.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Ed, you still have three minutes and twenty seconds. Go ahead.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I'd like to speak to the matter that was raised by the member opposite. Of course, the parliamentary secretary of the then-minister was the one who objected to the process. And it is a complex process, because it deals with civil burdens of proof. It's something that is done, in large measure, with any matter that deals with administrative law. Certainly, from that perspective it wasn't unanimous, and it's a matter of quite extensive intrusion and perhaps requires further debate.

But the other aspect that I was going to ask the Minister about is with respect to the matter of undocumented workers. In the previous government...and we've certainly had 13 years on both issues--on the citizenship matter, which still is outstanding because of revocation and some of the concerns that have been expressed, but also on that issue of the undocumented workers. Has anything been done in the 13 years that leaves you, in the situation you are in now, with potential solutions?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

No. As you know, the issue of undocumented workers has been an issue for a long time. The previous government did not move with any kind of regularization program. It was not even part of their election platform, which was interesting to me, given that so many members on the government side said it was on the cusp of happening. But somehow it didn't even make it into their election platform.

But setting that aside, this is a serious issue, and not just for Canada. It's an issue for every country in the world that is attractive to people, and we have to find a way to deal with it.

I think the best way to deal with it, frankly, is first to put in place a system that allows people who have blue collar skills and people who are general labourers to have a chance to come here, especially at a time when we need workers. So if they can come here legally, the first thing we do is staunch the illegal flow, which is critically important. Then at some point, when we get all that fixed, let's have a discussion about what we do with the undocumented workers who are here, who, by the way, in many cases are allowed to stay on humanitarian and compassionate grounds.

I think that's the first step, and I think it's really important that we get the order right when we talk about this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Ms. Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have to admit that I'm new to this committee. I'm very honoured to have the opportunity to serve. I was first elected in 2004 and re-elected last time around. My largely rural riding seemed untouched by immigration problems. However, I've observed that my riding offices have received several requests of this nature. Yesterday, a group of people met with me and several others to talk about their desperate situation.

Minister, could your department possibly provide us with some statistics on the number of people who have been denied their refugee claim?At present, the only recourse available to these individuals is an appeal to the Federal Court. They can request a judicial review or apply to remain in the country on humanitarian grounds. For example, over the last three years, how many refugees have filed appeals and how many of these appeals were filed by the same individual? At the same time, can you tell me how much it costs to process a review application or an application filed on humanitarian grounds?

Perhaps we could then determine if any savings are to be realized and if these could go toward the establishment of an appeals section.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I know we can come up with some statistics for you.

Within Canada, I think we accept about 50% of the people who apply. We have a very generous system compared with the rest of the world when it comes to accepting refugee claims, but I'll make sure we confirm any numbers for you.

There's no question that there would be savings to the system—to the federal government—if the numbers of appeals were reduced in some cases, because in some of those cases people are not using the system as legitimate refugees, but to stay long enough so that they can get a positive ruling on humanitarian and compassionate grounds. But the other expense, of course, is to the provinces, who fund lawyers to defend people who make these claims. So it's in everyone's interest to make sure that the system is fair on the one hand, and on the other hand that it is not overly complex. There are probably some ways we can do that.

With respect to your first comment that you're new to this committee, I would say that knowledge is important, but commonsense and goodwill are just as important. I think you'll do just fine, even representing a rural riding. In my rural riding, we have lots of immigration issues because we have so many refugees. I think every MP, to some degree, gets a crash course in immigration just by virtue of their position.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have 30 seconds remaining, if you want. If not, I'll move over to Rahim.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I wish to draw your attention to another matter. I am also my party's foreign affairs critic for Africa and Latin America. Before the election was called, we were advised of the imminent closure of three embassies in African nations. Our embassies have indeed been closed in Guinea, Gabon and Zambia.

Those waiting to come to Canada are now forced to go to another country or to another embassy in order to have their applications processed. This development has resulted in a more cumbersome process and in far fewer applications. Often, people do not have the means to travel to another embassy or to cover related costs. What steps to you intend to take to alleviate this situation?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

It is a difficult issue. As an MP, I have been in a situation where I've been trying to help people who had to travel to other countries to visit a mission to apply to come to Canada. So I appreciate the situation very much. It's difficult.

The problem is that in many countries it's difficult to warrant establishing a mission based on the number of applicants. I think what the department always tries to do is measure the likelihood of applications coming out of a particular country to try to give taxpayers the best value they can for money. I'm sure there are things we can do better, and I'm certainly open to suggestions on that.

That's probably all I can offer for now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We'll go now for five minutes to Rahim. That was seven minutes that time. We've been a little bit flexible on some of this, but try to stick to the five-minute or seven-minute round. We have a five-minute round here, Rahim, and you're already 15 seconds into it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'll try my best, Chair. Thank you for the warning.

I wanted to focus on the international student issue for a moment, Minister. I understand international students contribute about $4 billion a year to the Canadian economy. I think the minister should know that in my riding, Edmonton—Strathcona, the University of Alberta is home to about 35,000 students, and 2,100 of those, I believe, are foreign students who come into the riding every year. I believe even in the chair's riding, at Memorial University, there are about 800 international students.

I've already been hearing from students on this, who are very excited about the fact that they can look at working and helping to pay for some of the costs they incur in coming to Canada.

I was curious, though, when is this program going to become effective? How many students are going to be eligible for it, and how is it going to be rolled out? If you want to, speak about some of the benefits, because I think clearly this is going to help some of the challenges in the economy, as well, that I was talking about earlier. Whatever you can address on that would be great.

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

People can apply now. There's actually information on the website. We expect that as many as 100,000 foreign students might be eligible for this. It's offered in conjunction with the colleges and universities. They have to decide to participate. There are criteria around it, things such as that you have to be enrolled for a certain amount of time before you can become involved in it.

It really is important. There's huge competition to attract foreign students around the world, and Canada has done a pretty good job of it, but we have to keep up. This is a pretty important initiative to attract people, and it just happens to come at a great time too, because we have a very hot job market. I don't think anyone would deny these students will be very valuable in filling all kinds of jobs. Hopefully what this will do is pave the way for them, if they decide to stay and become permanent residents, because they'll have earned valuable Canadian experience and language skills. All this is very important, of course, to permanent residency.

So it's exciting, and I was glad to be able to announce it.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Great. That's the only question I had.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have two more minutes. Or we can move over to Bill, whichever you prefer.

Go ahead.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Minister, I'm noticing from your speech that a number of initiatives have gone forward, like the international student off-campus work permits, the foreign adoptions bill, and recognizing foreign credentials. It's taken years for the Citizenship Act to be amended, because it's so comprehensive and so many complex issues are involved. It almost seems as if you can't get anywhere in terms of actually accomplishing necessary amendments to make the system better. But remarkably, it appears you can take bite-size pieces and chip away at making the act more progressive and something that can work, particularly if you can have a consensus on a particular issue from all parties.

Is that an approach that you're favourably disposed to?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I think people want to see things get done, and there are things that can be done that everyone agrees will benefit the country. So I think it's fair to say that thus far we've focused on doing those kinds of things. Hopefully with the support of the committee, we'll be able to do more.

We have some other things we're thinking about, and hopefully we'll be able to announce them in the days and weeks ahead.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Ed.

Bill, please.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, I want to say that I understand Mr. Telegdi's concerns about the Citizenship Act. I think the committee did some excellent work last time, and there was unanimity, except for the former parliamentary secretary's particular exception. I'm not quite as intent at expressing my frustration to you in this situation, because I think the previous government needs to take the blame for not getting that on the agenda. They promised it a number of times, and it never showed up. So I think more of the responsibility and the opportunity lay with them. But in any case, I think excellent work was done, and I recommend it to the government for consideration.

I wanted to ask you about a couple of specific things. During the last Parliament, the committee heard from the Vietnamese community about the situation of 2,000 Vietnamese boat people in the Philippines. They have been stranded there since the refugee movement, without any legal status or hope that this is going to change. The government did institute a limited program that would have accepted up to 200 of those folks. My understanding is that only 27 met the conditions.

Eight of them arrived on Sunday, and Ms. Grewal and I were at the Vancouver airport. She was able to stay long enough to see them. I waited three and a half hours, then had to catch a flight.

Maybe we need to do something about processing times coming through customs and immigration at the airport.

But eight of them arrived and up to 27 are expected shortly. But there are still 148 in the Philippines, folks who didn't meet our criteria and who've been left out of the efforts of other countries. Is it possible that Canada might address the circumstances of those folks? The Vietnamese Canadian community is certainly willing to put effort into settlement arrangements. The mayor of Ottawa has said that Canada should accept more. Is that a possibility?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I have to admit I don't know this issue intimately. I would love to see more of these people come to Canada. In general, I would say that Canadians have a heart and want to help refugees of various kinds. They're people who are in difficult situations through no fault of their own. If there's a way it could be done, I would love to see it happen. But frankly, I have to familiarize myself with that to answer better.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, in the budget there was $307 million for settlement funding. Prior to the election, there was an agreement reached with Ontario that ultimately I think would move that funding to about $3,800 per immigrant. I know British Columbia is nowhere close to that. I'm wondering if the $307 million will go to evening out the per immigrant funding for settlement. I think British Columbia is down around $1,000 per immigrant. I know Quebec is up around $4,000. So there is a real disparity across the country. Will this help even that out?

[Monte Solberg, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

The $307 million was designed to help even it out. There is some discussion about whether the $3,800 number is exactly accurate, but there are two issues here. One is the settlement funding money, which will go, I think, a considerable way in helping the provinces deal with the issue of integration and settlement. Then there are larger discussions going on between the Prime Minister and the provinces to deal with overall fiscal imbalance concerns. Successful resolution of these concerns will allow everyone, hopefully, to put money to areas that are most important to them.

This is, I think, a pretty good step towards really helping out, and I think it's a measure of our good faith too. When people come here and they don't have the language skills, or they don't necessarily understand the culture, or they can't find a job yet, the Prime Minister understands very clearly how important it is that settlement agencies have the resources to help them. I see it in my own community.

So it's a good faith effort. It's probably never enough, but I think it will go a long way in helping.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, I have a couple of questions about war resisters in Canada, particularly people who served in the American armed forces and have problems of conscience with the war in Iraq. Canadians, I think, overwhelmingly believe that this is an illegal war, and an immoral war, and they are glad we're not participating in it. Some of these people have come into Canada and have made refugee claims. The previous government intervened in those refugee claims to challenge the introduction of evidence around the legality of that war. Will your government continue those interventions around the issue of the legality of the war in Iraq?

I'm also wondering if you would consider a special program to put war resisters on a track for permanent residence in Canada. We have had experience in the past of an incredible refugee movement from the United States around opposition to militarism, back during the Vietnam War period. Can we expect a program similar and parallel to that now?