Evidence of meeting #36 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was born.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Fadden  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Don Chapman  Lost Canadian Organization

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We'll bring our meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our meeting. I want to welcome the minister to our committee meeting today as we begin our study on the loss of Canadian citizenship for the years 1947, 1977, and 2007. I want to welcome the minister's deputy, Mr. Richard Fadden, to our meeting as well.

The meeting will run for approximately two hours, from 11 until 1 o'clock. It's a very important topic, and we're happy that the minister is here. She might be able to shed some light on the problem of the loss of Canadian citizenship and offer some solutions as well.

I'll hand it over to you, Minister, for your opening comments.

11 a.m.

Haldimand—Norfolk Ontario

Conservative

Diane Finley ConservativeMinister of Citizenship and Immigration

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the honourable members.

Thank you for this invitation, which today affords me my first opportunity to appear before this committee as Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Can we just hold it for a moment?

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Karygiannis?

11 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Can we get a copy of the minister's speech in both official languages? She's reading from notes.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I'm sorry, they're not yet available. They will be available later.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

It is customary, Mr. Chair, when a minister appears before a committee, that notes or a speech be given to the members. I'm sure the minister can probably send one of her staff to photocopy and bring it in for us to follow.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

The notes will be made available, I understand, from the minister in due course this morning. We'll wait for that to happen.

I'll ask the minister to continue.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Merci.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before you on the important subject of citizenship. In my new capacity as Minister for Citizenship and Immigration, I am grateful for the opportunity to share with you some of my thoughts and recent actions on a matter that is so fundamental to Canadian identity.

Just last week I had the honour of attending a very special citizenship ceremony at the Supreme Court. We celebrated the 60th anniversary of Canadian citizenship. We held a special event at which families from every province and territory gathered to take the oath of citizenship, and while the ceremony was very moving, the event gave me the chance to reflect on how fortunate we are to be Canadian citizens and what it means to be a citizen of Canada--that is, that citizenship isn't just about rights, but also about responsibilities.

With respect to my appearance before you today, I must say that I welcome this opportunity to discuss the issues surrounding the acquisition, the retention, and the resumption of Canadian citizenship.

Recently, the introduction of the U.S. western hemisphere travel initiative has increased attention on the issue of citizenship, and as people are seeking to get passports, questions about citizenship and proof of citizenship are emerging. Some media reports have highlighted cases of various individuals who have been affected by the loss of Canadian citizenship, and while some people have, for various reasons, lost their Canadian citizenship, there are also examples of people who never actually had citizenship, despite having every reason to believe they were Canadian citizens. Other cases have involved individuals who have not lost their citizenship, but rather--and this is an important difference--have lost their proof of citizenship and need to apply to replace it.

To reiterate what I said in a statement released on January 24, I wish to reassure concerned stakeholders that in almost all cases, anyone who was born in Canada is a Canadian citizen.

Recent media reports have highlighted very few examples of individuals who, having lived in Canada most of their lives, actually do not have citizenship. I will emphasize that my officials have identified a small number of people who fall under these anomaly categories. As I said before, these cases deserve immediate attention; that's why I have made these individual cases a priority, and I will continue to do so.

Before I go on, Mr. Chair, I know that many members of this committee and other stakeholders want the citizenship anomaly issues addressed through amendments to the Citizenship Act. In this regard, I am open to considering appropriate amendments to the Citizenship Act and I'd welcome the committee's participation in further examining the nature and scope of the problem to help us identify and evaluate a number of options. If there are responses to this issue that would protect the value and integrity of Canadian citizenship, then they should be considered. If all members of the committee support specific legislative changes, I'd be happy to look at those options.

In the present situation, the advantage of having unanimity is obvious. We all want a lasting solution, and I believe we can find one that's acceptable to all of us.

That said, my immediate focus is on helping people who are caught up in this situation right now. Legislative change could take time, and affected individuals should not have to wait indefinitely before amendments to the Citizenship Act are passed.

I look forward to the committee's recommendations and to hearing from the various witnesses who will be presenting over the next few weeks. It's my hope that these hearings will provide viable options for consideration in looking at the most effective ways to address the issues.

I want to assure all concerned that I will carefully examine and consider the options, legislative or otherwise, in the interest of creating a fairer system for all.

I appreciate the dedication and creativity that each member around this table has shown to resolve these issues, and I know that several of you have worked hard for countless hours on previous committee studies and reports relating to citizenship. I look forward to your sharing with me your combined 19 years of committee experience.

At this time, l would like to provide some context to the current situation. While the problem is real and deserves immediate attention, there is no evidence that it's as massive as has been reported in the media or portrayed by some honourable members.

These reports have mentioned thousands, hundreds of thousands, and even possibly over a million people being affected. But to put things in perspective, at this time we are talking about approximately 450 individuals whose cases have come to our attention and merit further consideration. Despite all the attention on this issue, that number has not grown significantly.

In fact, many of the calls we have received have been about Canadians who have simply lost their documents. These Canadians have not lost their citizenship; they have lost their proof of citizenship and have needed to replace it, much the same way as anyone who loses a birth certificate has to apply to replace it.

We recognize that this may be a frustrating step for someone who needs that proof to apply for a passport, for example. But in this age of heightened security concerns, it's important that we take steps to verify identity and check for potential fraudulent applications.

Every year, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration processes more than 60,000 citizenship applications from people who require citizenship in order to apply for a passport or benefits. Most receive it within a few months without any problem.

At this time, our focus is on the 450 cases. This includes people who by law had to take steps to retain their citizenship, but did not do so. It includes people who never became citizens and who could have registered to be citizens, but did not.

As members of the committee are well aware, a person's status may be affected by the 1947 act, the 1977 act, or amendments to those acts, depending on their situation. Not every application for Canadian citizenship is legitimate, but each application involves a human story and deserves close attention.

For the interests of all concerned, l'd like to outline some of the actions that I have recently taken to address the issues discussed since becoming minister last month.

My departmental officials are giving these applications serious attention, Mr. Chair. They are ensuring that the due diligence expected by you and the Canadians we represent is carried out.

As I mentioned earlier, I am using the powers available to me, as minister, under the Citizenship Act, and moving to resolve cases as quickly as possible. I have recently obtained approval, through the Governor in Council, for a special grant of citizenship for 33 individuals.

This group of individuals includes those who do not meet the provisions within the current legislation for a regular citizenship grant, but whose circumstances call for special considerations. These people demonstrate a significant attachment to Canada, currently live within the country, and have lived in Canada most of their lives.

In many cases we're dealing with individuals who never became citizens. For example, we have cases of people who were born abroad and didn't have their birth registered. Between 1947 and 1977, if you were born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, you had to register your birth abroad. Some people who lived on the Canada-U.S. border were born in the U.S., because that's where the closest hospital was. Under the laws in place at the time, if the birth was not registered, they would have U.S. citizenship and not Canadian citizenship. These individuals could have registered as Canadian citizens but did not.

In other cases we're dealing with individuals who were Canadian and had to take steps by a certain date to remain Canadian, but didn't do so. The current law says that if you were born abroad to a Canadian citizen, you're a Canadian citizen. But if your Canadian parent was also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, you have to take steps to retain your citizenship by the time you reach 28 years of age. This government didn't put the rules in place; they date back to 1977.

As long as we have had citizenship, Mr. Chair, we have generally required individuals born abroad to Canadian parents to retain their citizenship. Some members have criticized this requirement, suggesting that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. But by extension, this would mean that an individual could move away from Canada and his or her descendants would continue to be Canadian citizens for generations to come, without ever setting foot here or developing any real attachment to Canada.

l'd like to note that in 2005, this committee recognized that there should be limits on this type of citizenship and that the department should revise its citizenship cards to make this clearer. I'm pleased to say that we have now done that.

With respect to cases, l made it my department's priority to review each one on an individual basis. With respect to the actions we are taking, l have asked my department to take a number of steps to deal with this situation. I'd like to list five of them for you.

We have assigned additional staff to handle these cases and have created a dedicated unit in our call centre, so that people with questions about their citizenship can speak directly with someone who can help them.

In most cases, where it is a question of the loss of citizenship, a program officer is being assigned to each case.

We are working with our partners to ensure that while cases are under review, nobody is removed from the country, and benefits such as health care and old age security continue.

We're working with the passport office to refer people to our call centre to speak directly with our citizenship agents.

We are also helping to expedite the process for people who have not lost their citizenship, but rather have lost their proof of citizenship and need to apply to replace it.

Mr. Chair, allow me to give members of the committee a sense of the response that we have been receiving to these measures.

We get status updates every working day, so the numbers will continue to change, but since we set up the dedicated line for citizenship issues in our call centre on January 26, 2007, we've received 692 inquiries about potential loss of citizenship. To put that in perspective, 692 calls represent about 0.05% of the overall calls to our call centre on all issues.

In 675 of those cases, their citizenship has been confirmed and no further action is required. Of the remaining 17, seven have been invited to apply for discretionary grants of citizenship. Another three were identified as permanent residents and were asked to apply for regular grants; two more have been asked to apply for permanent residence; and five require further examination.

That's a far cry from the hundreds of thousands of cases, indeed millions, we're hearing about in the media.

Mr. Chair, each case must be reviewed individually. Where the case is founded, I absolutely want to resolve it as soon as possible. As I said, we have obtained approval to grant citizenship to 33 persons, and we will be working to resolve more cases.

I'd be remiss if I did not briefly mention the situation of Mr. Joseph Taylor, although I am limited in what I can say about Mr. Taylor because his case is currently before the courts. Although the Government of Canada is appealing the Federal Court decision on Mr. Taylor, I want to assure members that I'm not unsympathetic to his plight.

We are prepared to expedite an application for permanent resident status. This will allow him to apply for citizenship once he's satisfied certain requirements, which would include living in the country for a period of time. I wish to emphasize that we're appealing the Federal Court ruling because we believe it is wrong in law. It reinterprets citizenship and extends it to a time prior to Canada's having its own Citizenship Act in 1947. It applies to the charter retroactively, meaning that it applies to the charter at a point in time before the charter even existed. These and other factors have implications for all legal matters that go well beyond Mr. Taylor.

I'll give you one example, if I may. The Federal Court ruling suggested that not enough effort was made to directly notify Mr. Taylor and his family of the relevant provisions of the 1947 act that could impact his status. Mr. Taylor, who had lived here for three months when he was one year old, had moved back to Britain with his mother. The Canadian government had no way of knowing where he was. The judge's ruling suggested that the normal legislative and parliamentary process is insufficient and that all individuals who may be affected by a change in legislation must be notified no matter what the circumstances.

Now, imagine the impact this could have. Legislators regularly change tax laws, for example; individuals could claim that because they weren't notified individually and directly, the new law wouldn't apply to them. If that were the case, we'd have no way to apply the law to anyone.

Mr. Chair, I repeat what I said at the beginning: we are fortunate to be Canadian citizens, and Canadians expect us to take the issue of citizenship very seriously. We need to apply the law and to ensure that our system is functioning as it should and as it was designed to work. Of course, there must be room for compassion and common sense, and where it is merited, we have some flexibility to help individuals. I will continue to exercise that flexibility.

Before I conclude, I'd like to briefly address an issue that was in the media yesterday. We are committed to establishing an office that will help qualified foreign-trained professionals become accredited so that they can practise in their chosen fields right here in Canada. The 2006 federal budget set aside $18 million over two years to take the first steps towards establishing this entity, and Advantage Canada reaffirmed that the government will move forward on this commitment. Improved labour market integration is critical so that Canada can continue attracting and retaining the skilled immigrants that it needs.

I want to stress that all levels of government have a role to play in integrating newcomers to Canadian society and into our economy. My colleague Monte Solberg, Minister of Human Resources and Social Development Canada, and I are engaging our partners as we move forward, including provinces, territories, the 440 separate regulatory agencies that are each provincially or territorially licensed, post-secondary institutions, sector councils, and employers right across the country. We look forward to making future announcements about our progress in the coming weeks.

To sum up, the issue of citizenship is fundamental to Canadian identity. With citizenship comes both rights and responsibilities. Moving forward, I want to assure honourable members and concerned stakeholders that as Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, I look forward to this committee's recommendations. I look forward to a collaborative and constructive effort on behalf of all members to address these issues in the most appropriate manner. And I want to assure all honourable members that I will carefully examine the options, legislative or otherwise, in the interest of creating a better and fairer system for all.

Merci. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Madam Minister, for your very informative and very interesting statement.

We will now go to committee members. We have a seven-minute round of questioning to begin with.

I will go to Mr. Telegdi.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

Last Friday at the Supreme Court, we all saw the celebration of an event that occurred on January 3, 1947. I might mention, as we celebrate the sixtieth year of citizenship, that a more appropriate way of celebrating would have been to bring it into compliance with the charter, which is 25 years old this year.

Clearly, the 1947 Citizenship Act was very discriminatory. We had the Supreme Court rule on it under the Benner case.

Getting back to the citizenship ceremony, it might have been enhanced had you invited Paul Martin, the former Prime Minister, to the ceremonies. It was his father who was the original architect of citizenship. Further, it would have been useful if members of the committee had been invited to the ceremony. We obviously have a great interest.

But getting to your numbers, you threw down a marker and said 450 people. I dare say, Minister, we're going to hold you to that number. When these hearings are finished, you will see there are tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of people.

On that, here we have Mr. John Reynolds, who worked on Bill S-2, saying he remembered one of the bureaucrats telling him in committee that there could be as many as 200,000 of these people. Well, big deal; we bring in supposedly 300,000 a year in immigration, refugees, and others. If you're a Canadian, wouldn't you like to straighten that out even quicker for somebody who has a birthright here?

Well, Minister, many people have been denied that right.

I direct you to the 1997 decision of the Supreme Court--the highest court in the land--that pertained to Benner. It ruled that you cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual discrimination, meaning whether you derived your citizenship from your father or from your mother. That was the Supreme Court.

That actually was applied by the department until 2004, when Patricia Birkett, registrar of Canadian citizenship at that time, called it a provisional decision. It was cancelled as of 2004.

Minister, how you can be appealing the Clark case, on the one hand...? One of the Clark brothers and a sister...and this is a family of four. Three of them had citizenship restored to them under subsection 5(4) of the act that you keep referring to, and the fourth one is going to court. We would like to know how that is going.

We want to know the number of cases handled by Citizenship that are before the courts. We also want to know the cost.

Madam Minister, you made some commentary about the Joe Taylor case. I'm going to pass some information on to you. Here's a picture of Mr. Taylor when he was a baby. He's a son of a Canadian veteran who fought for this country in the Second World War. I will also pass on a pamphlet that these people got when they landed on the ship. It says: As soon as the ship docks, Canadian immigration officials will come aboard. These men will complete the formalities for your entry into Canada, which automatically makes you a Canadian citizen.

Madam Minister, I think you would benefit from having that information.

Another specific question I have for you is under subsection 5(4). You said you gave out 33. Well, don't you think that instead of having a minister giving citizenship to those she feels she likes...? Isn't that political? Shouldn't this be in law?

We have a figure of 30,000 people from the Mennonite Central Committee. I have a memo--and Mr. Janzen will be in front of us--about 30,000 people pertaining to lost retention. Then we have a whole bunch for people who were married abroad in religious, not civil ceremonies. I asked you this question in the House. How can we discriminate against people being married in a church?

I'll leave the questioning at that, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I think you're climbing into five minutes now, and this is a seven-minute round. The minister has two minutes to answer. I thought I'd remind you of that.

Thank you, Mr. Telegdi.

We'll go to the minister or her official to answer.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With the two minutes remaining, I'll try to address as many of those issues as I can, as time permits.

Unfortunately, I do not have the number of cases at hand at the moment, but I am told we can get them before this hearing is over.

I'd like to address the issue of the numbers again. When I said 450, that is the number of cases we have identified--people who have contacted us and with whom we have identified an issue arising out of the application of the various acts. Also, sometimes it's the interpretation of those, and people who have failed to renew or retain their citizenship when they need to.

In 1947 it was a very different world than it is now. Common-law marriage was not considered acceptable, and illegitimate children unfortunately had a stigma attached to them, which no longer exists. Times have changed, but as I'm sure the honourable member is well aware, the laws of the time were applied at the time. The way the laws are written, anyone who was affected by them was affected by the laws that were in place at that time. So if someone were born in 1946, that predates the Citizenship Act, so the laws under the Citizenship Act classically do not apply.

That's what's being debated in the courts right now, whether the laws are in fact retroactive. Up until this point, if someone were born in 1948 when Canadian citizenship did exist, the rules would have been different than they were in 1946. Those laws changed again in 1977. This is where a lot of the confusion arises because the rules changed once again, so someone born in 1978 was working under different rules than someone in 1976.

We're dealing with a variety of circumstances, and that's why I think it's really important that we look at each case individually on its own merits and look at it within the eyes of the law, not politically, but how do we do the right thing for these people? What is right by Canadian standards, the standards we hold dear today, and still fully within the legal system with respect to these individuals?

There has been a lot of speculation about the numbers, no question, but we've only identified the 450 individual cases to date. That's why we set up this special hotline so we can hear if there are more, because we want to address them as quickly as we can.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Minister.

We'll go to Madame Faille.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the minister for coming to meet with committee members.

I would definitely have appreciated receiving your notes in advance. We operate with a simultaneous interpretation system. However, I'm not sure all your remarks were translated as you would have liked.

The following subject is a concern for me. Earlier you announced that an expiry date would be added on citizenship cards in an attempt to solve the problem of young Canadians who have lost their citizenship before the age of 28. I'm referring to an article on the subject that appeared in La Presse early in the week.

In that article—and this is what concerns me—the spokesperson for Citizenship and Immigration Canada emphasized that you can't determine the number of people who have lost their citizenship because they didn't have to complete a form before their twenty-eighth birthday. However, if those people didn't complete the form to obtain this card, how will adding an expiry date improve matters?

We know that the problem for these people dates back to February 15, 2005. I'd like to know what measures your department has taken to contact these young Canadians who are abroad. Have you gone through the embassies?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Obviously, one of the challenges is for people who perhaps have very limited or even no real attachment to Canada. We don't know who they are and we don't know where they are. We track people who come into this country as they come in, but we don't track them as they leave. So if someone were abroad and reached this situation at the age of 28, even to find them to advise them they're in that circumstance is virtually impossible. We can make the information available at our embassies, but whether people check with them, we don't know.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Have you published information to that effect in a visible manner on your Web site?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Yes, we have done that, and we've done it in our offices abroad.

Perhaps the deputy could tell you about a few more of the steps we've taken.

11:30 a.m.

Richard Fadden Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Mr. Chairman, we have systematically made the information available to all our missions abroad, and we have a practice there of having both pamphlets and posters in various Canadian embassies. And as people contact Canadian embassies abroad, if citizenship matters arise, people are reminded of this sort of thing.

We do the same thing at CIC offices in Canada; there are some in every province. We also regularly put information on our website, and at the time the changes were occurring, we also, I believe, purchased a number of advertisements in the media.

But as the minister said, our real problem is that a lot of people simply disappear, from the department's perspective, and they're impossible to find.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Can you provide us with the details of those advertising or information campaigns, confirm for us that each of your overseas offices posts that information on its Web site and tell us when it became available? In view of the need to have a passport since January 23, have efforts been made to make individuals aware that they may not be Canadian or that additional action is necessary?

Our offices are located near a border with the United States. So we deal with a number of cases of this kind. I know that some of the cases you referred to earlier were processed on a priority basis and quickly. Some Quebec citizens have benefited from that measure. We were aware, since we monitor those cases closely. We appreciate the gesture. However, I'd like to know what specific actions have been taken by the department in a more permanent perspective.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Richard Fadden

This is a matter of detail, so I'll answer, if I may.

The passport office, I think, was the lead in dealing with anticipated increases in demand because of the United States regulations, and we have shared some information with them. Since this became a significant issue, we've put into place arrangements with the passport office, which will remain in effect, whereby any case they encounter in which citizenship is an issue will be referred to Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

We also have a permanent and ongoing connection with them whereby if somebody is asking for a passport, and there's some urgency involved, we have a system whereby the various documents can be faxed to our citizenship processing centre in Cape Breton, and usually there's a 48-hour turnaround.

In practical terms what we've done is made sure that the passport office is fully aware of the citizenship issues. We have a dedicated call centre line, and they have standing arrangements to communicate with our processing centre in Cape Breton.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

But why have citizens filing passport renewal applications been told they weren't Canadian citizens?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Richard Fadden

It is basically because--

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

There have been errors at the passport level?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Richard Fadden

--anyone who applies for a Canadian passport is required to provide proof of citizenship, and this can be done in a number of ways. If they don't have proof of Canadian citizenship, the matter then becomes an issue. It's become a particularly important issue because of the American decision to require passports.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

But people had passports in hand.