Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 19th, 2007

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Could we proceed with “finalizes the report (Study on Detention Centres-Security Certificates)” as motion 1, and motion 2 would be to call testimony from the five guards?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Isn't that the same thing?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Well, no, one, we're finalizing the report--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes. It is the same thing, isn't it?

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Point of order. The committee is proceeding to finalize the report. We don't need a motion to say we're proceeding to finalize the report--

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's exactly right. We are proceeding to finalize the report. So I don't know, Mr. Karygiannis, if you would wish....

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't think the finalization of the report and the testimony of the five guards...that one has anything to do with the other. We can finalize our report, but in the meantime I think that overwhelmingly the members of this committee, if I remember correctly the last time around, expressed that due diligence and human rights have to be respected. This is why it's up to this committee, regardless of whether we move on to finalize the report, to ask for the five guards to come and testify in front of the committee, in order to make sure that the allegations that were made to us by the detainees--and they mentioned each one of them individually--that questions be put to them as to what is happening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Karygiannis, you're not willing to split that motion. You want to leave it as is.

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I think I've said a number of times that I can't support this motion. I don't believe this is the place for us to work out the failures of the grievance system at the Kingston immigration holding centre. I think this result is one of the prime examples of the failure of that system.

I think we've covered our concerns about that grievance process in our recommendations and our discussion on the report to date. If anybody is going to come to this committee to discuss the circumstances, it should be the supervisors of the people who work there, not the individuals themselves. I just think this is the wrong place to do that work, and I can't support the motion on that basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Siksay.

Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I'm agreeing with the basic proposition by Mr. Siksay but for different reasons.

First of all, I'd like to make the point in terms of the committee report. If it's decided by this committee that we want to have the five guards here, and it's obviously the right of the committee to do that, I don't think the report should go forward until we've heard all of the evidence and all of the issues before we write the report. I mean, you can't submit a report and cut it off. I think if we've done it as one parcel it should stay as one parcel. I don't think we should have the report go until all of the evidence is in. That's the first point.

The second point, and I did have some concern, is that there were some general allegations made but nothing specific in a letter that referred to I think provincial and federal issues, and a sub-explanation of that was to be in the report, which I expect will be there when we see the report. I didn't feel that would warrant calling additional witnesses. If there were specific allegations of mistreatment by a particular guard to a particular prisoner, then that might be another matter. But I don't see that we have that in the report, or at least it wasn't in the report I've read.

I don't see that there's any basis at this stage for calling these guards. In part we're more interested in the process, and we've heard evidence on that. So I would be opposing it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

You have a comment, Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I would like to thank Mr. Komarnicki for what he is saying. Unfortunately, he was not with us the second time around when we went to Kingston. You were, Mr. Chair, and certainly other members of this committee, and they can remember and testify to the fact that allegations were made verbally and the five guards were named. So in that spirit, from what Mr. Komarnicki is saying, although he's not saying it in writing, certainly if he asks the clerk who was with us there, these allegations were made.

So I would urge him to reconsider and let's not play two sides here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It should be pointed out as well that this particular instance is not in our report.

I've heard from everyone who wishes to be heard on this issue. I would call for the question.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I would ask for a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Karygiannis would like a recorded vote on this.

[The Clerk of the Committee]

For a recorded vote I would go through the names of each member. It's just a formality.

(Motion negatived: nays 9; yeas 2)

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

There's no other business. You all know about tomorrow's committee meeting, and a steering committee meeting will be held afterwards.

The meeting is adjourned.