Evidence of meeting #50 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Yes, I agree. It would be three years, five years, and two years—maximum, ten. I think it was Mr. Harrison's recommendation.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Yes. He said that reappointments should be for five years, followed by a two-year term. Would you be in agreement with that?
12:15 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Yes.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
You mentioned that the minister should continue to be provided with three names for each vacancy. When you were giving the testimony—I assume you supply just a bulk set of names without regard to vacancies. Has it been the practice to supply three names for the vacancy, as opposed to a pool of candidates?
12:15 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
No. I think I discussed the 3:1 ratio at the last appearance. I had a discussion with one minister in terms of costs and benefits and in terms of coming to a conclusion about how many candidates you need. What was missing prior to putting in the new regime was that you had 300 people on the list and you needed only 20. The candidates were frustrated. They would phone and ask when they were going to be—
I was saying that in the private sector, your short list is sometimes 3:1. I asked the minister if he would agree that we should try to arrive at that objective—but if I could give 5:1, if the amount—
Our experience was that without going into a campaign—which we were—each year we usually had 300 applicants from all walks of life showing interest. With the campaign, it went up to 400 or something. I think that if you ran a campaign right now, you wouldn't get more than 300, because of the complexity of the work. You wouldn't get more than 300. Do you still do it? For sure.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Fleury, for coming to this committee today after 42 years of public service. We know in committee that public service can be both demanding and very rewarding. I think you should be proud of the work you've accomplished over your term.
I just want to go over a few questions with respect to the selection process and the appointment process.
It's my understanding that since 2004 the selection process for IRB members has included an initial screening, a written test, pre-screening by an advisory panel, a selection board interview, and reference checks. The advisory panel, consisting of the legal community, academia, non-governmental organizations, and human resources experts, is responsible for pre-screening candidates. The selection board, chaired by the IRB chairperson, then interviews candidates identified by the advisory panel. Based on the assessment of the advisory panel and the selection board, the IRB chairperson provides the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration with a list of qualified candidates. The minister can then recommend IRB members, who receive their appointments by order in council.
Mr. Fleury, do you consider those members who were selected through this current merit-based selection process, which was introduced by the prior Liberal government, to be better or worse than those selected before these reforms came into place, in terms of both competence and overall qualifications?
12:15 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I wasn't here before. All I'm saying is that we had a lot of complaints about how people were selected six, seven years, or eight years ago. The previous chair has written a book on that, and he makes reference to the quality, and so on.
The impression from my managers and the people I worked closely with was that we were getting there and had professionalized to a higher degree than in the past. That is not to say that with a different system in the past, we did not have good candidates. There were good, strong members in the past. But they probably didn't have the critical mass that was necessary.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
On February 28, 2007, during question period in the House, Minister Diane Finley said: “The current chair of the IRB, Mr. Fleury, has said, 'the Board could be an even more effective, efficient and ultimately fair tribunal'.”
What changes do you think are necessary to make the IRB “more effective, efficient, and ultimately fair”? What are the top three changes you would recommend?
12:20 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I didn't know about that. Are you quoting from a statement?
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
It's a question period response by a minister in the House.
12:20 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
You can always improve. I didn't have a shopping list.
Let me say that the mandate was professionalization of the institution. I think we were there. The mandate was a merit selection process independent of a political process. We were there. The mandate talked about governance, getting out of a backlog, and bringing institutions, both the public service and the GICs, to the highest standard. That is what we sought in the four and a half years.
This is not about Jean-Guy Fleury. My predecessors built this also, and I built on what they did. Whether it was performance evaluation improvement, diversity, or values and ethics, we reinforced each other.
The model I used with the IRB was what the Clerk of the Privy Council was trying to do with departments in terms of accountability, values, risk-taking, creativity, and innovation. There were all kinds of things that were—
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
It seems that the process is set up and structured fine. The problem seems to be at the minister's level, where there is this backlog and the minister's refusal to appoint and reappoint candidates. We had five vacancies when this government took over; we have sixty now.
Did the government ever give you any reason for not appointing more from the bank of candidates that your process put forward?
12:20 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I can't speak for the political; I can't speak for ministers. All I can say is that Minister Finley and I worked together only 60 days.
But the previous minister was always available. He always listened to my representations. Was I successful? I don't think so.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
You said earlier in your testimony that you had become a “liability”, and you felt that you were—
12:20 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
That's my opinion.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
—not being successful in convincing the minister to make these appointments. Why do you think you were unsuccessful in convincing the minister to make these appointments?
12:20 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I don't know.
Let me be quite clear here. When I recommended a candidate and gave the situation to the minister about what was at stake, I never asked them—They didn't account to me. I was a public servant; I provided advice, and I stated the facts. What happened thereafter I was not privy to, nor did I engage—
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
It's been almost six minutes. Thank you, Mr. Wilson.
I can continue on to the various parties, but I don't see any hands coming up. So I will go to the next one who indicated they wanted to speak, which was Mr. Alghabra.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to pick up on that point because, Mr. Fleury, we all heard testimony from you and the stakeholders about how much the IRB advanced. You were rightly very proud of the work you did and the progress you made as a chair and, previous to that, as executive director.
So I really find it surprising that you said a minute ago that you found your presence as chair—and these are my words—an impediment, or as you said, a liability. Could you please elaborate on that? How could you—especially after talking about your success regarding professionalization, governance, and independence—still feel that you were an impediment or a liability?
12:20 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Yes. Maybe the word “liability” in English is not what I meant. It's not a liability so much as, first of all, it's we who did that, it's not me. I'm very careful. It's everyone on the board. I had a sense that I had accomplished what I promised, and to wait for another nine months...I don't think the board would have been well served. I think my time had come.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Why not? I think everybody you ask will tell you that you, and the team with you, have served the board extremely well. Why, in this last nine months, do you say you're not—
12:25 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
My wife was very happy for me to leave. She helped draft the letter.
No, it's not the 42 years; it's about having a sense sometimes—how much more value-added could I be? And that's why I was a bit reticent to come here. I didn't see myself as being value-added today. I had given my testimonies to you previously. My sense is that when the time comes, you know it's there.
I've always said that it's important that when you get up in the morning you want to go, and if that feeling is not there, that's the signal.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I understand. I don't want to again put you in a difficult position, but did it have anything to do with the timing of the Harrison report release?
12:25 p.m.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Well, there's always timing in everything.
Let me talk about the Harrison report from one dimension. I was consulted throughout. Mr. Harrison and his team—I opened the door. They came and observed hearings in Toronto. They saw all our files. Mr. Harrison always kept me informed of where he was with the report, although the client was the minister. I wasn't the client.