Evidence of meeting #50 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
I want to welcome all of you this morning as we resume our study of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada appointment process.
We have one witness here today: Mr. Jean-Guy Fleury, former chairperson of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada.
Welcome to you, Mr. Fleury.
Jean-Guy Fleury former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just remarked that when I retired on March 16, I never thought I'd be here. I don't come with briefing books or advisers, and I did not consult the IRB since my departure with respect to the state of the union.
As you know, I'm here as an individual because I left my position as Chairperson of the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada on March 16.
Mr. Chairman, as you no doubt noted, I was reluctant to testify before this committee. It is not because I am retired or that I might fail in my responsibilities, but because I thought that the last time I testified, I provided the committee with a fairly complete picture of the Board, its members and its issues.
Having said that, I recognize my responsibilities and my duty to be here. After 42 years of service in the federal public service, I was ready to spend more time with my family and to take up new projects on my own. I'm very proud to have had the privilege of directing the Board, an important institution of the federal government.
As I noted in my letter to Minister Finley, I am proud of the innovation accomplishments achieved during my more than four years as chairperson of the Immigration and Refugee Board. Together with a team—and we have a very professional management team—we were able to eliminate the backlog in the refugee protection division, as well as produce a transformation agenda for needed change in the governance of the Immigration and Refugee Board. I left with the minister a proposal that she could take under advisement in terms of looking at the governance of the board for the future with a new chair.
I'm also very proud to have launched the initiative of appointing decision-makers by order, based on merit. Allow me to explain why.
As you know, since its establishment in 1989 following a court decision of 1985, the IRB has been an evolving institution. The 1985 ruling gave refugee claimants the protection of the Canadian Charter of Rights. This means refugees are entitled to due process through an oral hearing. The government decided that a separate, independent, quasi-judicial tribunal, accountable to Canadians through the courts and through this committee, would be the process. I mention this bit of history to underline that the IRB is still a relatively young institution. As a tribunal, it is still building its foundations.
I was very happy to have four predecessors, and I built on what they had done. I'm pretty sure that a new chair will do accordingly.
When I was appointed chairperson in December 2001, a key mandate I had was to professionalize the IRB as a tribunal so as to ensure high standards in decision-making to serve the public interest. Based on my previous experience of many years in senior positions in the field of human resource management, I proceeded to design and, with the government's consent, began operating a merit-based approach to enable the government to appoint adjudicating members to the tribunal.
I want to thank the committee for this opportunity to state these few introductory remarks. I am ready to answer questions.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
Thank you, Mr. Fleury, for your opening statement.
We will go to our first round of questions. We'll begin with Mr. Alghabra.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, Mr. Fleury. Thank you for coming. We really appreciate your coming here today.
First, I want to recognize your public service and the sensitivity that you feel you're probably in. I want to assure you that what we're trying to do here today is to understand what's going on and learn from your experience. We're just looking forward to your honest feedback and frank thoughts on this matter.
I want to start off by asking you to share with us your thoughts on how you felt the progress has been on the appointment process of IRB judges since you were appointed in 2001.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
As I said, when I was asked if I wanted to stand for the position at that time, I indicated that there were two or three things that needed to be done—from a distance, because I had been the executive director of that institution eight years prior, before being the chair. One of them was the fact that we have difficulty sometimes with our credibility surrounding the appointment process and the quality of the decision-makers. In terms of the Canadian perception and the people appearing in front of you, you cannot have a situation where people have doubts as to the abilities of the people rendering decisions.
So I indicated that we should look very closely at revamping the selection process. I'm very careful here—the selection process, not the appointment. The appointment belongs to the government, and it was never on the table. The question is the selection. How do you select, very objectively, based on criteria and on competencies?
As I said in the introductory remarks, we built a regime that we thought could answer to that. I will go back in terms of the commission. There are two things the commission had a history for. One was the question of the competency of the board and the capacity of members to undertake a very difficult task, a very important task, where the decision on the life and death of the individuals in front of you is important. So we established what are the competencies that are required to do the job, and are we recruiting to the right competencies.
If I'm too long, please let me know.
So we established and validated with members nine competencies, and we then started to establish the norm versus how we would measure those tools.
The second thing that was necessary was to try to make sure that at the staffing selection process, for the credibility of the board—because it was an administrative tribunal, with independent decision-makers—there would be no politicizing of the selection process. It was important that the people met the competencies, that we attracted the best and that we brought the best talent to the institution.
That's how it started at that time, and to me, it proved very worthwhile.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Were you pleased with the progress that you had accomplished?
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I was, and not only that, you should know, at the expense of time, that I sat through all the interviews of the first 200 candidates who came through the stream. I presided over the selection process.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Did you feel, then, that you needed to do another review? Was it your idea to conduct a new review?
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
Okay, I draw to your attention the statement by the minister when it was put in place. It said that the committee here would review after—I think we said two years, I'm not so sure. I was the one who brought to the attention of the government that a review would do, and that we should look at it.
I would caution you also, in terms of using words, that it talks about an evaluation. An evaluation is not like a review. To me, in an evaluation, you must be able to interview the people who didn't succeed, the people who succeeded, and look at your criteria. So what we have over here is a review of the process.
Liberal
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I was in favour that an evaluation was necessary, yes, and it was on the record that it would take place with the committee.
Liberal
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
No.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Have you had a chance to read what we call now the Harrison report?
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
You should be aware that Mr. Harrison and I knew each other professionally for years. When he was appointed at the Privy Council Office to do the work he was doing, I was on the first board he came to see how a merit system works. That was prior to his being appointed to do the review.
So we've been working professionally for a long time. There was a consultation process with agencies.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Just because I might have limited time, do you feel that the Harrison report recommendations improve the current process for appointment?
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
For the selection process there are a lot of models you can use. He is proposing a model in his recommendations. My sense is that the principle that we enunciated in the one that we have now, of keeping the selection process non-political, is what I could see.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
So you think the Harrison proposal adds more politicization to the selection process.
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
If you look at the recommendation, when he deals with combining the panel and the selection process together, with three appointments from the minister and three appointments from the chair, you are in effect having a political presence in terms of the selection process.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
One question is, because I'm running out of time, do you feel this is a step backwards from the progress that you've done?
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
I am saying that there are all kinds of models.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
But I'm really interested in your professional, sincere, frank opinion. You've told us how many years you've worked on improving the selection process, so I'm interested in your honest opinion. Is this a step backwards from all the work that you've built on?
former Chairperson, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, As an Individual
It's certainly not the way I would go.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
Thank you, Mr. Alghabra, and thank you, Mr. Fleury.
Madame Faille.