Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 7th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I have to move it along here, I'm quite sorry, because I have motions I have to deal with, and I want to get a couple of people in here.

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I will resist the temptation to make a speech about the refugee determination system and the problems and the potential solutions, although I think I feel as strongly as other members do about that.

I do have one final question for our witnesses. I wonder if you might just tell us a bit about your experience with performance evaluation at the board, both as members of the board and as managers. I'm not looking for the details of what your evaluation was—obviously it was very good because you're back with us—but just what that process looks like, and your experience of going through that process.

[Ken Sandhu]

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can speak to it from the point of view of someone who actually got assessed. I only contributed to assessment of my other colleagues as I was not formally a manager within the IRB.

Based on my experience with other agencies that I've worked in, and the performance assessment system that I implemented with the Ontario Board of Parole when I was there, I have to say this one is very thorough. It's very extensive. I felt that I was assessed on all the competencies and fairly. It involved my manager's coming and observing me in the hearing room. So I was quite impressed.

My sense is that in the future we will want to maintain it. If there are any improvements we can make, we would want to do so with input from the members. That's how I feel about it.

[Lois D. Figg]

I've had the opportunity to evaluate many members. I actually brought two of my own evaluations with me. We thoroughly evaluate each member just prior to the end of their mandate.

The form we have right now is about 45 pages long. It looks broadly at three strokes, which are: knowledge; quality in decision-making, and that also concerns quality in presiding skills; and also, generally, collegiality.

We've examined very closely since 2004 the nine competencies. So for each of the members during each evaluation, we look at the nine competencies. The managers review tapes of hearing rooms randomly. They take about 15 to 20 decisions, randomly, and review them. They observe hearings, as Mr. Sandhu has said. So it's a very, very thorough evaluation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, thank you.

We're in the fast-comment section of our program here.

So Mr. Komarnicki, Mr. Alghabra, and Mr. Karygiannis, fast comments, please.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity.

Maybe just to cover some of the remarks made by Mr. Telegdi, I find it interesting that he's interested in speeding up the process to keep criminals out. You would have thought it might be to allow appropriate claimants to be in. Obviously his party would not be the first and foremost one concerned and interested in that aspect of it.

With respect to the Vietnamese question, he had an opportunity, his government had an opportunity to do it...had a good number of years...failed to.... We've taken steps to ensure those remaining Vietnamese can come in through humanitarian and compassionate grounds. Certainly a solution is being found.

With respect to the new appointment process, it will be more efficient; it will produce people to fill the positions. When those positions are filled, I think they will be adequately worked forward. The report, actually, that we have from the appointments commission sends a higher standard, not a lower standard, in terms of accountability, transparency, and credibility. It's open. It's transparent. That's why the report was commissioned.

For the first time, all appointees will be required to pass a written exam. That's not the case under the previous system. We're taking a balanced approach to allowing the chair and the minister to appoint members, and to having the people go through one body as opposed to two bodies, which will streamline that. We've undertaken a national search for qualified candidates. We're committing to holding regular recruitment campaigns. It's interesting that Mr. Sandhu was able to partake of that.

The process for filling the vacancies is well under way and it will be completed before long. We will move rapidly and will have a well-functioning IRB board.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay. That's two minutes. Thank you, Mr. Komarnicki.

Mr. Alghabra, I think you had a comment you wanted to make.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you, Mr. Sandhu and Ms. Figg, for coming here. I'm going to leave political rhetoric until we have a minister here or for during the campaign. What I'm going to do right now is say what I didn't get a chance to say during my time earlier.

I don't know if you've had the chance yet, but I invite you to read the report that this committee tabled in the House of Commons a couple of weeks ago. It's a comprehensive report about refugees and refugee matters. I think it would be very useful for you to get the opinion of this committee on what we think the pressing issues and the important matters are.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Alghabra.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for coming here today and providing the information you did. It was very, very well done. We thank you for that. We thank you for your valuable public service and the great work you're doing.

Please feel free to come back at any time, even without an invitation. Thank you very much.

We'll allow a minute for our witnesses to move away, and then we'll go into three motions that we have here.

Okay, we will move back to our first motion.

Tell us about your motion, Mr. Siksay. Maybe you can read it into the record.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very happy to present this motion this morning. The motions reads:

That the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration study the issue of immigration consultants, that the Committee invite members of the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants (CSIC), immigration consultants who work independent of CSIC and individuals who have used the services of immigration consultants.

Mr. Chair, the reason I'm bringing this is that the whole area of immigration consultants has been one of controversy for many years. There were measures taken to establish a professional organization of immigration consultants, a self-governing professional association. That association, CSIC, has been established for a number of years now, and I think it's a good opportunity for the committee to have another look at the situation regarding the practice of immigration consultancy.

We know there are still some controversies and that there is still some reticence among some immigration consultants to be part of the organization. We know there have been some growing pains for that organization and we know there are clients of immigration consultants who have concerns about the service they received and the conduct of the consultants.

I think it would be important for the committee to spend a meeting or two looking at that and seeing what the state of that professional organization is, and of the profession in general, because it affects so many people who are immigrating to Canada or who are hoping to have someone immigrate to Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Siksay.

Do you have a comment, Mr. Karygiannis?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair, I do have a comment or two.

I don't believe you will find that Citizenship and Immigration Canada takes any representations from somebody who is not a member of CSIC. The problem I have is for work independent of CSIC and individuals who have used the service of immigration consultants.

The fact that we would like to call the individuals who have used the services of immigration consultants is fine, but there's been a move by many people who have come forward and spoken to many of us about CSIC and how hard the level is to complete their exam. There's a level for competency and there's a level for the speaking of English. I know for a fact that there are certain communities, including especially a particular community in my riding, that have come and said they've studied in Canada, they've earned their degrees in Canada, and yet they cannot get that exam.

The organization and the way it's working.... The level they have, the standard for people to come in, is so high. I'm just wondering if Mr. Siksay knows of individuals who are independent of CSIC. Maybe he should bring those to the attention of the minister and ask the minister not to represent them anymore.

My only problem is...I don't mind getting them in here, but the wording of “independent”--I mean, if I'm working independent of CSIC, I'm certainly not going to come here and say I did that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Alghabra.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

May I suggest making a friendly amendment? I don't know how we want to word it, but I'm just going to suggest that the committee conduct a study on the immigration consultancy industry. In a way, that will include our inviting the representative regulators as well as individuals who are stakeholders in this industry.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Go ahead, Mr. Telegdi, and then we can move on.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I think a study on this one would be good. I have too many people coming in who end up being deported, and their bank account is empty because they've been fleeced by consultants. I have had that experience too often.

The other issue--and, Bill, I'm not sure if you were going to look at it--goes beyond the borders of Canada. We have unscrupulous consultants in, say, Pakistan, selling a bag of goods to a prospective immigrant, who then ends up coming here. Then it becomes a real problem for them with what they were told. What can we do about that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Madame Faille is next, and then Mr. Siksay.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I recently had the opportunity to meet with the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants. At the same time, we met with the Canadian Bar Association. I think that they are on the right track with regard to training people and increasing the number of members of their association.

However, the problems they have concern the protection of immigrants. I have briefed the committee on problems regarding information posted in embassies in the country's mother tongue. India is one of many countries that has several languages. In China, guidelines on immigration applications are posted in Mandarin. The problem was that the translations were not right. The department had told us that it would get back to us on this. I don't know whether the researchers have had a response from the department on this. Perhaps not.

I think that, here, with regard to the wording, there is no point hearing from individuals who are not members of the society. I don't know whether my colleague can amend his motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Could I make a suggestion to that effect, Chair? It may help us get to a conclusion.

I think folks have made a good point about the phrase “immigration consultants who work independent”. I think maybe it would be better to say “immigration consultants who are critical of CSIC and its requirements”. I know there is some controversy about the requirements, which may be helpful to look at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Do you have a question for Bill on that?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

How about the ones internationally?

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I think it's broad. It's not meant to be limited to domestic--

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

But they work independently of any regulations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Komarnicki.