Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 31st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Go ahead. You can answer it, and then we'll move on to Madam Faille.

[Xun (Shawn) Li]

It is hard to name. I know from the initial list, when they sent the report from Amnesty International, they had about a dozen. What they actually classify is anything that does not conform to the Communist ideology; they will be treated as such. So not only those organizations, but also Tibetans, Christians, and Catholics. They are all persecuted, but Falun Gong is the largest group being persecuted in China, using the most severe means of persecution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Thank you, Borys.

Madam Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Upon further reflection, it's clear that China's human rights violations are totally unacceptable. Canada must step up its efforts in terms of establishing economic ties or finalizing agreements with China. Human rights rules must be incorporated into such agreements.

Johanne Deschamps with whom I will be splitting my time will be speaking about the Bloc Québécois' position with respect to Falun Gong. In the short term, however, some issues require our urgent attention, such as the deportation of people claiming refugee status in Canada.

To the best of your knowledge, how many deportation orders have been issued to date against Falun Gong practitioners? I've been asked to get involved in a few cases, but surely you have a better idea of the numbers involved. I'd also like you to explain the political context that you've described. You had the support of the Prime Minister of the day. What's happened in the interim at the IRB? Why suddenly are Falun Gong practitioners being deported?

[Xun (Shawn) Li]

Thank you very much for bringing up this question, and Joel can add more after my input.

Canada is the first country in the world to condemn the persecution of Falun Gong, officially on July 26, 1999. A headline in the Globe and Mail was entitled “Canada condemns China's crackdown”. Later on, Axworthy also spoke out, on November 9, as reported by Reuters. So we are quite proud of the initial government gesture.

We are also, at the same time, disheartened when we hear that Hu Xiaoping, a Montreal practitioner, was scheduled to be deported in early August of last year, and that was just one month prior to the Chinese President Hu Jintao's visit. Timing-wise, this case is really disheartening for us. We can now confirm it was for the purpose of pleasing the Chinese visit, but we were very disheartened by the gesture or the action taken.

I understand there could be errors or mistakes in the process, but prior to that a similar situation also occurred. About four years ago, there was another individual scheduled to be deported back, but the Falun Dafa Association stepped forward and identified that he was a practitioner and Canada took immediate action to stop the deportation, even within a very short period of time.

We did the same, we made our efforts even just before the airplane was scheduled to fly from Vancouver in early August, and we held a press conference on Parliament Hill. We see that somehow there's a kind of determination to return him back. So this is the only case in Canada for the Falun Dafa Association to identify a practitioner who was being sent back to China.

Besides Canada, we know that Cambodia did this on August 9, 2002, with the pressure from China to send back two practitioners. They even had a certificate of UN refugee protection, and they sent them back regardless, and they got condemnation worldwide. Also, Thailand made such an effort, and the United Arab Emirates made efforts.

For the case of the UAE, United Arab Emirates, and Canada, we appealed to the Canadian ambassador there, and Canada gave a special visa so that Yuzhi Wang, the lady, could come to Canada. With regard to the case—and this is one of our requests—we hope, number one, that this will not happen any more. Number two is we want him to come back to Canada, because when he was sent back to China, first, he was already persecuted mentally and he could not practise freely. Secondly, he's facing physical persecution at any time. Even with our fellow colleague in Montreal...trying to reach her to verify her status in China...she is fearful and does not want to reveal the situation.

Sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's okay. In the interests of time, I have to move on to Bill now.

I know you had a question, Mr. Xun, but we'll do it on the next round. I think we'll get you on the next round, rest assured.

Bill.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for being with us this afternoon.

I would like to give a special thank you to Mr. He, Mr. Qiu, and Mr. Lin for coming, given your own personal experiences.

Mr. Matas, you mentioned the need to expel those who incite hatred against Falun Gong practitioners in Canada. Can you give us any examples of that kind of incitement to hatred that's happened in Canada or persecution that's happened to folks here in Canada that might require this kind of remedy?

[David Matas]

Well, yes. In fact there was the case of the Chinese consul in Calgary. There's a hate crime unit in Edmonton that recommended to the Attorney General prosecution for incitement to hatred. It's an offence that requires the consent of the Attorney General--the police can't actually just lay a charge--and the Attorney General didn't consent. But obviously, there was substantial evidence there or the police never would have made such a recommendation.

What we have with Falun Gong, which is typical for crimes against humanity, is a dehumanization. These people are slandered that they're a cult, that they're engaged in barbaric practices. This is the sort of stuff that Mr. He was talking about, the kind of stuff he was being forced to watch all the time. And the Chinese repeat that. There have been a number of libel suits in Canada. One of them is going on in Toronto right now against MingPao, if I remember correctly. There's another one that's going on in Montreal. It's against, I think, the Chinese Daily News.

This is a big problem in Canada. The Chinese government is not just inciting hatred against the Falun Gong in China; they're doing it worldwide, including in Canada.

We should say that this is not appropriate behaviour in Canada.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Matas, I understand that you and a former member of Parliament, David Kilgour, have undertaken to do an independent inquiry into one of the most horrific accusations that has been made against the Chinese government, that organs are being harvested from some folks, including Falun Gong practitioners, who are interned in labour camps.

I wonder if you can explain a little bit about that accusation and your experience of trying to do that kind of investigation to find out information about that particular circumstance.

[David Matas]

It's true that we have been asked to do this. The reason we've been asked to do it is that unlike the other persecution that you've heard of, which is well documented--we have witnesses, we have Amnesty--this particular accusation has been meet with disbelief, even amongst people who protest the human rights violations against Falun Gong. Amnesty International is not sure it's happening. The United States government is not sure it's happening, and there are various people that.... It's so horrific, it's hard to believe. So this is not a situation where we're at the stage of saying, let's do something to stop it. We're at a stage of asking, is this really true?

The coalition that was set up to protest violations of human rights against the Falun Gong asked David Kilgour and me to investigate these allegations, and that's exactly what we're doing. We will produce a report by the end of June. We've been interviewing witnesses. While David Kilgour was in Washington he interviewed some witnesses there. There have been a number of investigators who've been phoning the hospitals, the doctors, and people who are working in the transplant system in China, and getting inculpatory statements from them. Then we have to evaluate the credibility of these admission statements, and we are putting this all together. Of course, there's all this contextual information about incitement to hatred, the mass detentions, the persecution, and so on.

We will come up with a report evaluating all this evidence and saying either that these allegations are true in our belief or not true, or there needs to be further investigation. But I can't tell you now what the result of that report is going to be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have thirty seconds.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I'll ask a quick question, then.

If we're identifying Falun Gong practitioners as a particular class of people who are subject to persecution, can you tell me how membership is determined or how we would understand someone to be a practitioner of Falun Gong ?

[Joel Chipkar]

I think that's the million dollar question for the IRB. It's very difficult, because Falun Gong is a spiritual belief. It's a belief system. You believe it. It becomes part of who you are. But there's no membership. There are no rituals. There's no worship. It's a belief. So what we try to do is give the IRB some information based on our personal expertise of who we feel the Falun Gong practitioners are, because we are the ones who are involved in the Falun Gong community day after day. Through their sharing, through their history, and also through their involvement in the community we can verify if they are true practitioners or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Nina, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the presenters.

We see in your brief that the Ottawa Citizen reported that the RCMP has placed 15 officials on a watch list. Has the RCMP contacted your organization for additional information? What actions, if any, has the RCMP undertaken to investigate those who are there?

[Xun (Shawn) Li]

Canada has a war crimes and crimes against humanity program, as we learned in the summer of 2003. We contacted the RCMP in that special unit and had a meeting with the immigration officer and two RCMP officials. After watching our video and presentation, they made an immediate pledge. They said those individuals would be barred if they acted as the video was showing.

Early in 2004 we contacted the RCMP war crimes unit. They confirmed they had opened a file on the Falun Gong, and if those individuals came into Canada they would take further action to investigate. We had a press conference jointly with David Matas, from the legal perspective and the moral perspective. So they have contacted us, but with the current pressure from the Chinese regime, how effective will it be? That is what we're asking.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How many Falun Gong associations currently exist worldwide?

[Xun (Shawn) Li]

The Falun Gong is recognized in more than 70 countries. China is the only country that persecutes the Falun Gong. Many of them have associations--many even on a small scale, with assistance centres or coordinator centres. So we believe there are thousands of Falun Dafa associations worldwide. China used to have many of those kinds of associations, but after the crackdown they were destroyed. There were ten thousand of them in China.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Ed, you have two and a half minutes.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Obviously some of the allegations, as mentioned to Mr. Siksay, are of such a nature that there's been a measure of disbelief. But most of it boils down to a question of proof or evidence, which I understand you're taking some steps to try to rectify in one fashion or another.

Of course, the IRB first considers a refugee claim before anyone is removed. They look at a pre-removal risk assessment, and if you can establish them, those types of allegations play into the very issues that are to be determined. That's really the body that's set up to deal with those kinds of things.

Are you satisfied that you have put the most current documentation, proof, and evidence you have before the board?

[David Matas]

The concern here is not just with the board or the pre-removal risk assessment; it's also what happens afterwards. For instance, there was the case where somebody was removed who the Falun Dafa Association had identified. The board said it was not credible and didn't believe she was a Falun Gong. The pre-removal risk assessment said there was no new evidence. It was after those two decisions that the person came to the Falun Dafa Association. At that point, the Falun Dafa Association communicated to the government that she was Falun Gong.

The problem here is timing in relation to what's going on. It may well be that if that information had been communicated to the board or the pre-removal risk assessment officer, this person wouldn't have been in that situation. But our position is that no matter when the information comes, it should be acted on or reacted to. It should never be too late, as long as the person is here.

Mechanically, of course, if the Falun Dafa Association gives subsequent information that a person is Falun Gong, there could be a new pre-removal risk assessment application, and the person should not be removed in the meantime until that new information is considered.

The trouble was that this person was removed, basically without consideration of this new information on the identification of the person as Falun Gong by the Falun Dafa Association, because the formal steps in the process had been completed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ed.

Blair.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, presenters.

Before I ask my question, Mr. Chipkar, we have you down here as a spokesperson in Toronto. What specific organization do you represent?

[Joel Chipkar]

Sorry, I should have made that clear at the beginning. I'm with the Falun Dafa Association of Canada.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Is there a representative here from Amnesty International? We were provided with some briefing notes from Amnesty International.