Evidence of meeting #12 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was karygiannis.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Mr. Chair, my question to you is that the witness's name was submitted in due time, properly submitted, and was omitted. Either the witness was omitted on purpose by you and the clerk or it was an oversight.
I don't think Mr. Batters—
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
Let me address that point.
I had absolutely no idea we were nearing the end of our list so quickly. When we had our meeting on Monday, it was my understanding that we would be continuing with this bill and would invite additional witnesses. In the meantime, Mr. Komarnicki's motion on Monday intervened, and as a result, we are not calling any more witnesses.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Mr. Chair, may I point out to you, and then leave it at this, that all the other witnesses on the list were invited, with the exception of my daughter.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Having said that, sir, I don't think due diligence was done.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
I think she would have been invited. Actually, there's no way of telling whether she would or would not. But if the witness list had continued today, we would have continued to call people in. But it didn't happen that way.
Do you wish to comment?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
You just clarified it. There was a motion passed on Monday, and that is the explanation for Hon. Jim Karygiannis.
February 13th, 2008 / 3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON
Mr. Chairman, obviously the points raised by Mr. Karygiannis are things that I'm sure you will take note of in the future, as well as the clerk, as well as the point raised by Mr. Telegdi. But at this point I would like to proceed to the orders of the day.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Before you start, I went through the bill and I didn't see any problems with it in terms of what was proposed. I will register again the concerns of the Council for Refugees. I registered a concern about what happens to second generation born abroad.
From my end, we can do this very quickly, because let's face it, we got blackmailed into it, and we'll take it because it's an improvement over what's there now. But it has created another problem, which did not have to happen. We could have come out with a bill that was enhanced with very little work. I want Mr. Davidson to know that we will be back and we will be fixing that.
In the meantime, just to let you know, Mr. Chair, from our end, we can put it through very quickly.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
As a procedural point, if I may, what resources will the department be using, what method will the department be using, to reach the people who are affected? We had some figures that 368,000 first-generation Canadians were born abroad between 1982 to today. We had in the past asked what resources the department had expended on advertising for lost Canadians, and they promised to come back to us with figures.
Before we move in this fashion, that we say, okay, we're only going to take first generation, what method will the department be establishing, what protocol will they be establishing, to reach out to the 368,000 first generation born abroad, plus the 114,000 born abroad between 1947 and 1977? Do they have a method? Do they have an advertising budget? I'd like to get clarification on that before we move in that fashion, because we can have people who are affected and lose their citizenship without knowing it.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
Okay, since we are going to be able to move through the bill very quickly, I think we can entertain a couple of questions beforehand.
Mr. Davidson or Mr. Komarnicki, who would answer that question?
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
The point is that I know a certain amount of debate is healthy, but we said we would start with the bill itself, we would finish that, and then there may be some issues that this member may want answered. But the first order of business was that we would start with clause-by-clause of the bill, and I think that's what we should do. If he wishes to deal with some other issue relative to the bill, he can--at a different time, but not this time.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
No, not on that point, Mr. Karygiannis.
First of all, I'm going to go to Mr. Bevilacqua, and then I'll come back to you, Mr. Telegdi. I think we've had a great deal of cooperation in trying to get this bill passed. I don't want to stifle anyone's concerns before going to clause-by-clause. It's only 20 minutes before 4 o'clock and we have until 5:30, so I think we can afford to be a little bit lenient here and allow a bit of wide-ranging concern to be enunciated.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON
Chairman, that's precisely the point I was going to make.
Mr. Komarnicki, as you probably know, we in the opposition have actually stated our issues. You've known also that my colleagues have worked very hard on this issue, and it's an issue that we deeply care about.
But in fairness to Mr. Karygiannis, what he's asking is a very simple, straightforward question. We're going to move forward on this bill. What are the resources and what methodology will be applied to make the words on this bill reality?
So a little bit of flexibility on your part would be quite helpful.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
I think I'll refer that to Mr. Davidson.
Would you like to make a comment on that, sir?
3:40 p.m.
Mark Davidson Director, Legislation and Program Policy, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd be happy to try to answer that question, but I'm not prepared today for a detailed answer to the question, because this goes to the issue of how the bill will be implemented.
We certainly have the intention of doing a number of changes. We'll have to make some significant changes to our kits and forms, our training packages, and in particular to our communication messages within the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and indeed with other government departments--for example, Passport Canada. As we're getting ready to implement the bill, we will certainly have a detailed communication plan. We'd be more than happy to share that with the committee as it's developed, if the committee would be interested.
The last point I'll make is to highlight the way this bill is structured: there's no application required for individuals who will become citizens as a result of this, and there's no deadline for them to take action on their status. It's not a situation in which individuals will have to know x by x. They will become citizens by force of law, and it's not required for them to take certain action by a specific date.
As I said, if the committee is interested, we'd be happy to come back as we get ready to implement the bill down the road.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
Thank you, Mr. Davidson.
Mr. Karygiannis is next. Then Mr. Telegdi, I think, had a question.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Mr. Chair, my concern is how the department would be able to reach out to my daughter and the 368,000 other individuals who were born abroad and say, “Be careful, you're the first ones. Be careful that your offspring are not born abroad.” Can Mr. Davidson provide me with assurances that this would be done?
The other thing is that we put a sunset clause in this bill for three years and come back and revisit it after three years. I want assurances about the 368,000 after 1977, the 114,000 before 1977, as well as the numbers that we have extrapolated. Mr. Davidson could sit there and we could talk about numbers, but it could be a million people born abroad between 1997 and 2020. I want to have assurances that these people will be advised.
My child was born abroad. I wasn't advised of anything. How will my child know? These are children in child-bearing years. How will they know to come back to Canada quickly so that their babies--my grandkid tomorrow, my daughter's baby--will not be stuck in the lurch? How would the department move to have those assurances?
If they say they're going to do something, then I would recommend that we put a sunset clause on this bill, especially on the first generation, and that we revisit it in three years. That's fair to say, because if the department fails us in the first three years and they haven't done due diligence, as they hadn't done due diligence.... The minister and the deputy minister stood there and said, “We've advertised”, and they have to write a letter of apology. We asked for figures on how they advertised and we still haven't got them. So the department is not forthcoming with doing due diligence and respecting the work we're doing on this issue.
Twice we didn't get budgets and twice we didn't get anything. The only thing we got here was an ad, and when we asked for more, it wasn't forthcoming. We haven't received information we asked for.
I'm not sure how they have breached this committee's works, so I want to be reassured, or else I would move that we put a sunset clause on the bill for three years.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
Mr. Davidson, can you offer any reassurances there? Do you wish to comment?
3:40 p.m.
Director, Legislation and Program Policy, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
I can certainly assure the committee that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, and indeed other departments, will do their utmost to update our communication tools and to work with other groups. For example, we have an excellent relationship with the Mennonite Central Committee. We have many networks that take advantage to get these messages out to the population, to the group Mr. Karygiannis is talking about.