Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 5th, 2008

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

I would really like to have this deferred until we're able to get more information. Ms. Chow has probably been exposed.... For 15 years, 98% of my work has been immigration, and certainly the safe third country agreement has been very, very problematic. However, I think it would be a better-informed decision if we could get some witnesses on this to help us decide whether we'll vote in favour or not. I certainly know what I hear from my constituents. I know the people I've gone to battle for, but I don't know the other side.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I get the impression that you're going to make the point that witnesses, officials, can't come until the court case will be dealt with.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Yes, that's what I want.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'm not sure we necessarily need just our officials. Let's have some immigration lawyers; let's have some people who are familiar with the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I have a couple more comments here.

Mr. Karygiannis, did you want to make a comment?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Very short, Chair.

Mr. Telegdi mentioned that the EU has a common goal that if somebody is found to be a refugee, they can move around. That's not the case. We have people waiting to get across to Britain, stuck at Calais in France, so that is not the case. We do have some working relationship, I understand, between Canada and the EU. People who were in the EU and have been found to be refugee claimants and then tried to come to Canada—I know some of my constituents have—we sort of take them back.

So until we get more clarification on this and where we go, I would strongly recommend that we move this to deferment until we can get more information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Just following along the lines of what Mr. Karygiannis indicates, there's no question with this matter being tested by a court. We should have that answer before we go further and either defeat this motion or defer it.

I would like to say one other thing, just for clarification purposes. Although you may have difficulty equalizing the United States and Canada in terms of having the same refugee processes, when you look at the big picture—they are better in some cases, worse in others, and we are better in some, worse in others—overall we're relatively similar.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I think Ms. Chow would like to have the motion voted on.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I move to defer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You would have to move that the debate be adjourned, but then there is a vote, is there?

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

She is saying she wants a motion to defer this whole issue. It's quite different from taking a vote on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

So we have an intervention here by Madam Beaumier, who has proposed a motion—I guess it's quite in order, Mr. Clerk—that the motion be deferred to a later date, until the court case has been dealt with. That is a valid motion.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It might be appealed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

After the process is finished.

So could we vote on that motion?

[An hon. member]

Speaking on it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

The motion is now open for discussion.

I saw Ms. Chow and Mr. St-Cyr.

Let's try to move this along, because in the final analysis, we are going to vote, so let's try to move it along. We have had a great deal of discussion on this.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I will.

I want to remind members that this motion had been deferred. This was introduced in the last term, in November, and at that time we said, “Well, why don't we think about it?” So I said, “Fine, think about it.” It's now March, we've had several months to think about it, and then there was a suggestion, “Let's have some officials and examine it.” Well, the officials said they can't come to answer any questions, so there's nothing really to examine. You either do it or you don't do it; you support it or you don't support it.

The motion in front of us said let's defer it until the court case is finished. I thought that especially the Conservative Party of Canada said that it is Parliament that makes the decision, not courts. Oh, now that's not the case any more; maybe we will allow the court to make a decision. My gosh, what's the matter? So actually that will probably take a few years. I don't know whether we'll be here in a few years. In the meantime, many lives will be destroyed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I'm going to hear Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I didn't speak to the question. I must admit that I am somewhat familiar with it but that I haven't studied it in detail. Pardon me, Ms. Chow, but I wasn't yet a member of the committee when the motion was tabled.

I think we could wait for a few meetings and give ourselves some time to examine the question. I understand that representatives can't be or don't want to come, but that doesn't prevent the committee from consulting lawyers, refugee advocacy groups and so on. We can still listen to people.

I'd be prepared to defer the motion a little longer, a week or two, but not wait for the adjournment motion, which, if I understood correctly, will come after the courts have rendered a decision. That would be absolutely ridiculous because the purpose of the motion, of which I am more in favour in principle, is to enforce the court decision immediately, then look at the challenges later.

I want to be sure I understand clearly. If the motion is to adjourn debate until the matter is settled in the courts, that's frankly ridiculous. That can take two or three years. So we should take a position now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We can hear one more.

Mr. Telegdi, I saw your hand up. Could you be brief, please?

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

What I want to first of all clarify is the motion to defer. Is there a timeframe, maybe to defer for about a month and then call witnesses that are available?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Do you want to consider that, Ms. Beaumier—to defer it for one month?

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Yes, I hadn't.... We can defer it for a month, but in the meantime call witnesses.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

We have to get witnesses called for it.